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Last update for (4)TERU v4.6 : 2013, 02, 02 21:47
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
4526 (4)TERU v4.6 128*128CrystalDrag1.7finalground

The map has been rated 67 times and got a total of 115 points
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Melee

Observer

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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


Freakling
This post is not displayed due to its content
CrystalDrag
This post is not displayed due to its content
CrystalDrag
ZvP - 1-1
PvT - 0-0
TvZ - 0-0

ZvZ - 0-0
PvP - 0-0
TvT - 0-0

---------------------------------------------
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
That's what I thought how it would work, but as I said: very vulnerable minlines. Please don't use a 500 mineral patch or any sort of minerals, will bug out workers, just use a neutral building!

One of the mineral onlies has minerls placed right on (the unbuildable part of) one of those temple pillars... You should move it.
modified by Freakling
crystaldrag
buildings + eggs.. kewl.
deco soon
sTy_leZerG-eX
This is very nice as well, it brings some interesting mechanics to the nat and 3rd, i really like it. Eventually add some ruins tho
asiantraceur
Pretty cool 3rd layout me gusta
CrystalDrag
Just realized this is a resemblance of Fighting Spirit with the naturals moved to the would be bridges

The ruins look slightly off... oh well :(
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
This is not at all like FS.

Add more ruins, actually you could blend ruins with the nat ramps and make them look like old weathered pathways (with a ring path around the middle).
JungleTerrain
I like this concept a lot :)

my comments are so worthless nowadays lol
Freakling
:(

Now you went overboard again. I think neither the colonies nor the generators are required. And the middle deco looks terrible and repetitive.
greatn00b
generators seem decent idea to me.
CrystalDrag
colonies probaby not required...
and the protoss wall will be in front of the ramp... but whatever ill get rid of it.


this is not near completion, because i havent included the buildable doodads on the dirts...

I know the middle is repeptive.... i am going to use make a circle in the middle with dirt blends.
modified by CrystalDrag
JungleTerrain
oh, btw guys, i started my stream, check it out www.twitch.tv/jungleterrain

I might even play on this map with a friend... who knows :)
crystaldrag
That would be really great, JungleTerrain, but could you please wait for me to release a protected obs? My recent maps in all Caps is part of a series im working on. :D

Gemlong as the away picture :P

What times are you gonna stream? :D

update, observer version
modified by CrystalDrag
asiantraceur
The pic doesn't have the generators did you take those out?
CrystalDrag
Yes i diddd. Decided that if zerg felt the need to run around the wall to the third to nat, then protoss would have enough time to react to move over there/build a blocking building
Freakling
Only that Zerg could also decide to attack the backdoor first... I'd like to see the initial design restored!
asiantraceur
I kinda liked the power generator there...
JungleTerrain
I don't even know when I'll stream. Probably just at random times because I'm in school. Also, I have to use my roommate's mouse, so when he needs it I can't play :(
NegativeZero
I thought the generator worked well also. Now ling runbys at the small ramp might be too strong, especially in close positions with Z spawning clockwise of P (where the secondary route is only slightly longer than the main route anyway).
Freakling
That's why I liked the first setup: the normal wallin would also take care of that choke, and ling runbys/worker snipes from behind the minerals are already dealt with by the stasis cell.
Deco looks like it has improved a lot :)
CrystalDrag
ah statis field is 0 0 0 0 so it good building for the use of walls :)

you are refering to those setups freakling? .-. they still should be able to work. protoss can decide which one they want to set up.

the walling with the gateway touching the nexus is not tight...
modified by CrystalDrag
CrystalDrag
Tigher mineral formations at the mineral onlines, so that pathing isnt disturbed..
also fixed some tiles which didnt block zerglings..
JungleTerrain
I gotta say I really like this map
CrystalDrag
Thanks :D
Freakling
In case you haven't noticed, yet - I added this to tourney map aspirants already.
asiantraceur
Me gusta
Nightmarjoo
Aren't the nat2nat distances too short?
Freakling
Good point... I think they are even a bit shorter than in (4)Voices IV... But there's a lot of room to push the nats back into on this map.
Nightmarjoo
Which then basically does turn it into Fighting Spirit.
JungleTerrain
Haha so true. I like FS, though. Sucks for uniqueness, however.
CrystalDrag
Which is what i said way up there, freakling... :P
retreat to the main choke then..... 1 rax 1 dep
Freakling
Still a lot different than FS (different middle, more vulnerable 3rds, high ground nat, nat backdoor....

But what would you suggest as a solution, marjoo?
JungleTerrain
nmjoo doesn't present solutions anymore, just problems :)
Freakling
Anyway, I had a closer look and nat-to-nat distance seems about the same as on Voices (they have nats at same positions, so that's pretty easy to see), but nats are much safer in this map... Personally I always found it uncomfortably short in close position play on voices, but I have no idea if there is any "public opinion" about that issue...
CrystalDrag
Forced cross spawn positions would be ideal for this map, but an invalid one...
But because this is highground naturals, i feel like it will play out differently than voices.... it was rather hard to wall in voices, and the minerals exposed sort of..
i wouldnt like enemy spawning clockwise to me, due to third with the smaller and safer choke closer to them... but it might work out the same way in fighting spirit with the thirds.
Nightmarjoo
Solution: new map!
CrystalDrag
Have fun with that~
Freakling
Nah, no need to give up as long as long as there is easily reallocatible space...
CrystalDrag
But my entire concept was based on that natural position.. :O
Freakling
Is that water behind the nat in any way mandatory for anything? Because I see no other reason to not tinker around with it...
CrystalDrag
i wouldnt use the water for the natural... but maybe something else..
asiantraceur
Unwalkable high temple? Or push the nats back a little bit?
CrystalDrag
That 2nd suggestion is the dumbest thing ever :) i like the idea of high temple, maybe ruins...
asiantraceur
Dumber than (2) Challenger?
CrystalDrag
That map isnt that bad....
Just referencing to the argument up there freakling said to move the naturals back.
"But there's a lot of room to push the nats back into on this map."
You must have missed it, mianhae
NegativeZero
challenger is automatically not dumb because that's the map where Boxer played the blind guy
asiantraceur
Can you update this map (add in power generators and update whatever needs fixing) really like this map :D
Freakling
What if you just rotate all the nats a bit clockwise while moving them minimally counterclockwise, so the minerals face more towards the edge and the ramp a bit more where the minerals are right now. That would also give the middle a bit more room and probably allow you to move the minonlies a bit further apart.
CrystalDrag
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CrystalDrag
Something like this with the 2nd ramp moved back?
Wont use that ugly ramp though.

@asiantraceur i will make the second ramp be a 4x3 entrance, so rax/gate/hatch can block totally, or 3x2 possibly.
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
I think that's about what i meant :P

And yes, not the ugly ramp, use an angled one, there's enough room to be considerate of aesthetics.
CrystalDrag
This post is not displayed due to its content
Freakling
My point was mostly about relocating the ramps.
What you did now did almost nothing to improve nat-to-nat distances, which was the issue to be adressed in the first place.

But I like those ovi spots. You should extend them a bit, then you would not need a neutral to tighten the choke.
CrystalDrag
Well i have no idea what you talks about... \"bit clockwise while moving them minimally counterclockwise\"
I am going to host some games on this (USEAST or ICCUP server) to see how the players feels...

perhaps freakling help me? :) Change the naturals the way (cause i am oblivious to your idea) and i can do the overlord spots...
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
I'll see, what I can do. Prob not today...
CrystalDrag
Alrightt thank yous.
ProTosS4eveR
You should remove the temple and the white crater thing at NW and SE naturals ramps

and yes i still visit the site :)
CrystalDrag
Freakling my computer crash, so i lost all my maps... and backup went corrupt... have you been working on this at all? if not i need to know so i can start working on this, cause i have nothing else. :/
Freakling
Not yet, sorry.
CrystalDrag
Mkay :)
CrystalDrag
Freaklingg, People like this map alot.. o.o Please see what you can do?
asiantraceur
Why are the ov spots gone
crystaldrag
They never were uploaded, i lost them in a computer crash. I recreate the ovie spots once he nats are prperly placed
Freakling
Why have you removed so many of your maps from the DB?!!
CrystalDrag
I am reworking them... And they ugly previously. idk.
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
Well... I just asked because I missed (8)Versailles in the TL thread.
And because I wanted to suggest to you to remodel that desert Grand-Line-Python crossover with the kind of symmetry I used for ChemLab (possibly with mains on top/bottom though), I think that geometric layout would work perfectly with that kind of map.
crystaldrag
I am remaking that desert map after TERU

Updated new basic layout of the natural.... 3 and 9 need to have some land taken away.

modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
Find the black tile :P
CrystalDrag
The overlord spot is going to be there haha.
Freakling
There's two things you still could do to increase nat-to-nat distances:
- Rotate the ramps to were there's the big water body now
- Move the nat closer to the main.

Ideally I think you can do both at once.

Your nats are very close to the middle of the edges to begin with, which naturally minimizes distances.
You get maximal distances in the corners, but since corner nats are not very practical having them just closer to the corners is where most maps have their nats...
CrystalDrag
I think i prefer like this. I will check the timings later once i have the time.
asiantraceur
I think having the nats up against the side of the map might help...ofc I don't think there's anything wrong with encouraging early pressure makes for some intense games...
Lol just realized how much this looks like FS
CrystalDrag
"Lol just realized how much this looks like FS
"
Which is precisely why i do not want "having the nats up against the side of the map"
asiantraceur
Fighting Spirit doesn't remember? It's got that little alley drops try to sneak through
JungleTerrain
Have you thought about making the thirds low ground? that way it seems like you took FS and reversed the elevations between the Natural and the Third.
CrystalDrag
Naturals now gate+forge wallin, all mains + backdoor can be walled in with rax+depot :)

I am going to see if i can do that JungleTerrain. :P if these naturals are good enough (-.-;) then i will try to make the thirds low ground with a bunch of tile blending to bridges and temple :D
Freakling
You can probably move the minonlies a bit, so they are right in the path between nats, and I think it'll be all right...
You could also rotate them, so they are oriented in a more sideways fashion instead of towards the centre.
You should probably remove or shrink the central plateau to avoid tightening things too much up.

Protoss wallins are expected right at the main ramp right now, right?
Keep in mind that that makes the backdoor very abusable. I am still in favour of a solution closer to what this map started with.

If you go with the low ground 3rd, you should probably use a narrow bridge as a choke towards the middle. Or just a narrow gap, that's easy to wall/lurker defend.

I think you can do better than conceal bad blends with tree sprites :)
crystaldrag
By movin the mineral-only bases, is that rotating them clockwise and also the mineral formations clockwise?

I can remove some of the center plateau.

I shall work on the wallins for protoss as the original was then. Should i move the stasis prisons closer to the naturals so no ling runbys can happen?

I was foing to use a bridge :) was also thibking of making the path towards natiral have brisges too.

Those sprites are temporary' just in case i needed to extens them firther.


Freakling
About the minonlies: Just chose whatever does the job best without retricting pating too much.

About, the wallins: The original idea behind the stasis cells was, to prevent runbys behind the mineral lines. Whether you need them or not will depend on how you end up tweaking the nat...
CrystalDrag
I think he mineral onlies are fin now... It was more of an issue of he space bhind them.

2.2 has walling in at a future small choke of forge and gateway' but lings can still run around rhe nexus.... Must check if cannon range will pew pew rhem.

Made nicer blends :)

Working on he thirds rifht now
CrystalDrag
Updated
Freakling
Hmmm...

Not sure yet... Let me try some things first...
CrystalDrag
Hmmm
Why now freakling... when i want to make updates...
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
Sorry Crystal... I should probably just tell you what I wanted to try out.
I. Have you tried having the bridge face the other way, mot towards the minonlies? That way it would be a bit further off one's clockwise neighbours nat.
With the optimal postioning of the minonlies I'd go from there.

And some of your blends, I don't really like. THey are really on the far side of doable, and therfore rather on the "well, if we don't look too closely..." side of aesthetics.
CrystalDrag
Ah okay you can edit them, i was going to work on the naturala, but i can do it id you want to do that stuff
CrystalDrag
Freakling are you working on this at alL?
Freakling
Sorry, no, probably no mapping from me at all for some time. All my SC time is dedicated to taking up with the BWMN Open at the moment.
But I already posted, what I would try to change.
CrystalDrag
Alright :) Very good. Ill try to make those changes myself
CrystalDrag
Did some stuff with the third... it is very hard to reorient the ramps to go the other way when the water is in a circular pattern.

Indicate which blends need work? i know that NE needs reworking... not sure where else.
Freakling
Side edges of temples should border on jungle wherever possible.
And I think you should not blend high temple directly into low ground - unless you really want it to look like the pieces just do not fit together...

And... Circles are just boring... Don't make things unnecessarily awkward, only to gain some geometric shape.
CrystalDrag
Changed the third bridges successfully...

redoing the overlord spots will take me some time, but i think ill find a way... One problem freakling is that jungle is most likely the worst for this blending, see as you only have (4)Everflow as your only jungle map. D:
JungleTerrain
use temple wall tiles, you just gotta be creative. Look at my map (2)Screw You, I have some interesting blends there
Freakling
I am just gonna ignore your mocking and just point put that having jungle next to the temple is just the natural order of things... No need to even use artificial blends...
You can also use just aggregations of "pillars" (i.e. just right edges against left edges), which makes it even easier to blend the rest with just the pyramid doodad tiles.
CrystalDrag
Can you reupload screw you jungle? D: ]

They still suck. :(
modified by CrystalDrag
JungleTerrain
lol this map is going to be final at like TERU v34.7 or something like that.

I can't reupload it now, I don't have it on my laptop. Next week maybe
Freakling
I like them much better now.
Download the obs map! I did some small improvements on those blends.

I think you should push the 3rds closer towards the mains, but keep the out of tank range (~13 unpassable tiles in between, now it's more like nearly 20 or so, I think, so there's a lot of leeway)

Finally you could probably change the minonlies around. Right now workers could annoyingly disrupt nat to nat pathing.
I would still try orrienting them more sideways.

I think you can finish this, at maybe around version 2.9999..... ;)
CrystalDrag
What to do with the area between the natural and mains?
I thought more important to balace the distance between the mains to the thirds.

I would either have to rotate around center or push to the middle getting rid of the middle overlord spot?

Whole numbers stand for major map changes, tenths for each new edits

Also, there is problem walling in with protoss NW because gateway is not tight with above and forge is not tight with nexus
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
If you move all thirds by the same amount, distances will change by the same amount accordingly.
Or do you mean that thirds should be halfway between the nats?
The point is, that with this setup, similar to FS, the thirds aren't really neutral to begin with.

I don't really get the thing with the middle, I was just talking about the mineral onlies.

What do hundredths and thousandths stand for?

Can you make screenshots for the wallins?
CrystalDrag
"Or do you mean that thirds should be halfway between the nats?"
This
But i see.

Alright

They dont stand for anything. :D

mhm
CrystalDrag
updated?
NegativeZero
Ramps to the 3rds were better with their previous orientation - there was an interesting dynamic where the clockwise 3rd was farther but more easily defended from your base via the corridor, while the counterclockwise 3rd was closer but required leaving your nat and moving through open terrain in order to defend. Now that both 3rds are approximately equal distance away, the clockwise one has a clear advantage.

Also the entrances to the 3rds are awkward now, with weird zig-zag pathing, and the geyser gets in the way in some positions.
Freakling
With the thirds overall closer to the main it's probably OK to have the bridges the other way around again...
The problem is, that if a player does not take the third next to his main, he\'ll have to worry about the second entrance to the nat much more.
But I think it is not possible to eliminate rotational imbalance (or at least strong variety :P) from this map without giving up the concept...

This is why I think Crystal should try to allow for nat wall-ins that can cover both chokes.
I think it's just a matter of having those stasis cells cover the gap between cliff edge and Nexus more (with the new resource setup, main concern would be gas snipes out of cannon range, I'd say)

Oh, a propos nat gas postions. Right now they are terrible. You should place them with at least two tiles overlap with a CC/Nex/Hatch vertically or horizontally (I hope it's clear what I mean...)
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
This post is not displayed due to its content
CrystalDrag
I am conflicted what to do with the thirds.....
I will fix the bridge positions.
And yea negative, with this kind of map your kinda forced to take it to be safer.


I will fix the natural gas positiosn if you mean that up there.
I will change the statis prison position.
Freakling
This post is not displayed due to its content
CrystalDrag
Okay,
How did you set the unit building boundaries' the cc has its prescise size and not the 4by3 hex
Freakling
You don't know O_o

Debug/"enable debug" checked + "show unit collision sizes" checked.

It's also very helpful for testing out wall-ins.
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
I always did it by knowing the exact numbers when "list of building and unit sizes"

So i need to change natural gas placements, the 3rd bridges direction, and the natural wallin i have to check. Is that it?
And i assume minerals are fine now
modified by CrystalDrag
CrystalDrag
And you mentioned some map before would be terrible to force cross spawn locations, can you explain why?
Freakling
----------------------------

What do you mean by \"minerals are fine\".

I haven\\\'t tested any minerals, I have no idea if they are fine...

And all mains should have normal, vertical mineral lines.

If you mean the minonlies... Unfortunately they still look like units would get stuck in them...

I would:
- Rotate the temple walls
- While moving them them closer to the edge
- Only leaving a rather narrow gap between the outer water ring and the temple.

This would do three things for you:
- 1. It would make Nat to nat distances a bit longer and less direct
- 2. units would have to move around the temple wall and hence would not get stuck at buildings or mining workers
- 3. and a smaller passage would make the whole area around your third more defensible, which would be great, because of aforementioned problem with strong rotational variance because of the nat backdoor into third setup.
- Finally the middle passages would probably still end up being more open than now, which would concentrate big army movement there, which also should help with rotational differences (pathes through the centre are pretty much equidistant)
----------------------------
Middle
Finally, more free space in the centre may allow you to increase the size of that central ovi spot a bit...

Okay, okay, I know. I know. I told you to shrink it down in the first place, you can curse me now... But I think it is really minimal-sized now, and it would be very hard to even hide an overlord from vision from all sides there. Have you actually tested it?
----------------------------
Force Spawn (Bad idea
And what\'s that about forced cross spawn? Are you actually considering that?
There\'s two problems with that...
Actually it\'s probably even kind of three-ish...

i. First and foremost, it requires triggers, and would henceforth no longer be a proper melee map.
ii. When you are essentially creating a (2) map anyway, you could have done much more interesting things with the middle and expos (not saying (4) maps are boring, quite the contrary, but the excitement comes from the positional variance, different matchups and the many different ways the map can play out owing to this)
(~iii-ish.) Have you not a bit of pride as a BW mapper? can\'t you leave that lame cheating to SC2 mappers?

----------------------------
Freakling Rant
Finally: Not sure how arsehole-ish this post sounded... if it does, sorry, it\\\'s not because of you or the map but because... well:

WHAT THE FUCKING STUPID CRAP FROM SHITTING BLOODY HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My SCMDraft crashes whenever it opens a Space map.
And by a space map, I actually mean any space map! And only space maps, though!!! @_@
It\\\'s not corrupted maps, and it\'s not SCMDraft (I already reinstalled it)... Right now my StarCraft is reinstalling, hopefully that\'ll fix it...

And like 3 of my latest maps are space maps...

So, yeah, I am really really annoyed right now...

EDIT: Good news (well for me at least): Reinstalling SC fixed it... Probably some corruption in some MPQ that SCMDraft uses to read the map data?
----------------------------
Never Complete
Oh, yeah and finally-finally (that\'s the finally after finally): If by \"is that it?\" you mean, would that finish the map?
You should know better shouldn\\\'t you :P
There is no such thing as a finished map, ever.
There are only points in space-time-continuum where either you cease to bother any more, or where the map enters a map pool and it\'s kinda too late to implement those final edits you really, really wanted to make, if only you had had the time...

E
modified by CrystalDrag
modified by CrystalDrag
CrystalDrag
minonlies
- Rotate the temple walls
- While moving them them closer to the edge
- Only leaving a rather narrow gap between the outer water ring and the temple.

And all mains should have normal, vertical mineral lines.

Finally, more free space in the centre may allow you to increase the size of that central ovi spot a bit...

-------------------------------------------

Where would i move the mineral onlies, between a main and its 3rd, or main and the opponents thirD?

I was thinking having the minonlies and temple walls between the 3rd and the nat of the next spawn would make a nice, defensible obstacle.

-------------------------------------------

I did read all that up there thou

i do curse you for the center.
I always thought having that kind of format made overlord spots... but now i think it requires four isometrical shapes.
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
I was thinking having the minonlies and temple walls between the 3rd and the nat of the next spawn would make a nice, defensible obstacle.

stricken out = done?
or stricken out = FU, Freaky!

And I think you can actually place an ovi there, put you'd have to place it very precisely.
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
stricken means i read it and/or already done. o.o
Yeah, but most people are not attentive enough to do that..

modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
I meant the wall between the other nat and the third... So your nat and your backddor third are connected to the same area of the middle.
And with the wall and minonlies closer to the water, so there\'s only a narrow gap to defend on the outside, but the middle is more open.

And I think you should use normal bridges for the east and west thirds, too. The vertical ones are just way too different. At least they look much wider and harder to defend.

By the way, before you make map pictures you need to turn the collision boxes off, unfortunately, because they show up on the pic.
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
Can you do them for me :)
Freakling
Yes, I can.
But do I want to? :P

Well, OK
But only if you fix the bridges first.
CrystalDrag
There o_O
Oh Freakling can you also take a look at the NE Mineral Wallin Patch? it is 5 pixels over from the right, but yet cannot build buildings on the tile.

Eggs do not disrupt the CC NEX HATCH
modified by CrystalDrag
CrystalDrag
This post is not displayed due to its content
Freakling
So those mineral patches are meant to tighten the wallins vs. lings

Mineral patches count as buildings. So they generally cannot have overlapping placement boxes.
For other units and buildings it's the collision boxes that must not overlap.
So in conclusion: Use immobile units, i.e. eggs (doors would also work, and they are indistructible, but it would look really strange...)
CrystalDrag
Actually, only NW needs the minerals to be ling tight. The other ones are to make it not weird for one main to have minerals while the other dont.

I guess in this case cant do it to the left..
I guess ill add eggs once you update the mineral onlines whenever....
Freakling
Will do it this weekend, but probably not until Sunday.
CrystalDrag
Alright.
Freakling
-> Observer version.
I wasn't aware, how much copy-pasted stuff there's already in the middle.
So you'll have to fix up the messed up jungle there yourself...
CrystalDrag
Haha thats okay :) i was going to warn you about that.
CrystalDrag
So because no map is ever finished, I guess i leave it as beta forever :D

120+ comments to get this ^^
modified by CrystalDrag
JungleTerrain
I think the map turned out to be pretty solid even though you edited it a lot. At least large armies won't really try to go around the narrow sides and the nat-2-nat distances will feel a little longer now because of the temple walls in the middle. It might be a little tougher to flank, but overall the map is cool. I feel like the mineral onlies won't really be used much, though. Still, I don't think they should be removed.

I like it.
Freakling
The mineral onlies, or rather the temples behind them, are more there for tactical purposes, to devide middle, I guess.
But they are still there for players to take in the final stages of a long, drawn out game, just like on Gemlong, Melting Pot or the middle expo on FS.
Freakling
The map turned out solid, even though he edited it a lot O_o ?!!

@Crystal: There is no comment numbering, did you actually count them manually? o_O Or was that just a "random" number you came up with?
JungleTerrain
that's not what I meant :)

@Freakling: If you click on the database or even an author, the list shows you the number of comments on a map thread.
Freakling
Oh, right, didn't think about that @_@
Freakling
Minonly at 5 has Comsat blocked.

And I think you should not use dark Aqua as a player colour in this map, because of the exrensive use of neutral buildings. Make it the normal blue or something else entirely.
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
Fix comsat station
Fix minonly at 5
Change the player color

I did edit alot :D You just guided me with all the edits (which is alot, but...). about 50 comments from you, 60 from be, and the rest from everyone else.

I was also thinking of adding either one of these

dirt to temple to jungle (runeland rupture
around the edges of the outer circle or inner circle

a ruin line near the edge of the water

modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
You could form those ruins into a pathway that connects all the nat ramps with each other.

Whatever you do with the middle deco, make sure there's some room to cannon up around the minonlies (and comsat of course) and ideally make it less "messy" (right now the buildable areas are pretty uneven and it is hard to discern buildable from unbuildable terrain.
Also you could maybe move the wide ramps just two tiles clockwise, so just the stasis cell is enough to block the gap between edge and Nex.
The single egg at the temple wall should ideally be positioned such that all three races can wall tight with them (there should be no collision box overlap with any of the usual suspects: Rax, depot, gate, forge, hatch, evo, den)
Freakling
Apropos ruins next to water - if you want something really fancy, you could do something similar to Dantes Peak centre.
But eye candy is eye candy...
CrystalDrag
Fix comsat station
Fix minonly at 5
Change the player color

Create a ruin pathwAy

Make the buildabpe/unbuildable more obvious. Do you have any tiles easily distinguishable and also will no cause bug?

I understand what to do with ramps :)
Edit:: wait\\\' do you mean pivoting them at the opposite ramp place, or transferring them closed to the edges by 2x1 boxes

I usually do 5 pixels... But isnt the greatest gap16(gateway top) so i can just move one pixel?

Ill do that eyecandy after these updates
<
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
Just don't use unbuildable jungle, or use unbuildable ruins-edge-tiles with a bit of ruins on them, I'd guess?...

Ramps either two tiles up/ down or 2 to the side and one up/down, that way they\'ll keep their alignment with isometric terrain, but displaced by one iso, relative to their current position...

Ideally you could look for the smallest and widest gaps on each of those buildings I listed and then chose one displacement, that will fit into each of those gaps, but leave at most 15 pixels of free space for lings (or 14 to the sides, if you want to be pedantic about ghosts, but that'd be rather pointless ;P )...

Ok, screw that last paragraph :P
I know that Hatch top and gate top&right are the only ones that do not wall ling-tight against a wall, so that's your 16 gaps. One pixel displacements should therefore suffice.


modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
It may have looked better without ruin...
Freakling
Looks OK...

But you keep backups, right?!

I was thinking that you were going to connect the existing ruins in the middle and with the ramps, anyway, not make a ring shaped path around the perimeter.
CrystalDrag
It looks okay ingame.
Update- The jungle to the ramps was ugly as !@#$, so replaced.
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
Picture not updated?
CrystalDrag
Nope
Picture Updated
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
Really nice.
Can you work on the desert map now?
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
Yepp!
CrystalDrag
Protoss can now wall-in with 3 pylons against vultures while expanding counterclockwise
Decoration changes
Natural change for availability of building missile turrets, and to prevent workers getting stuck behind stasis prisons.

Observer Version finally!
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
You really wanted to reach that version 4.0, didn't you?
CrystalDrag
Yes :D Looks better than 3.9!
CrystalDrag
Much complain about hydralisk sniping
Freakling
So you are playtesting it now?
I can kind a see that, lots of room for hydras to spread out in deed.
Maybe tighter ramp?
It's not that wide to begin with though, so I don't know.
And if you put the wallin at the ramp, backdoor ling runbys would become a sever problem in the early game.

I guess, although you may not like it, but reshaping the nat in a more FS-like manner would obviously solve the issue...

Right now I'd compare this to Katrina...
Was Hydra-sniping much of a problem on Katrina?
Katrina had much longer distances, though, I think.
Katrina is really old anyway...
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
This post is not displayed due to its content
Freakling
Ling runbys before getting up the Core?
And I think, players do not like to wall with core any more, nowadays, or maybe they don't even consider it...
Freakling
Typical map for wallins with core would be RotK, but you could easily block the ramp there and have it all nicely covered by cannons...
This is more like the exact opposite... No ramp or choke to block, no cannons were lings would really have to run by (and if you make the right one your second cannon, it will be horribly exposed, and you can still run 6 speelings through two cannons easily and have 3+ survive, if the choke is not blocked.)
To block the choke you'd have to pull approximately 6+ probes, I'd guess...

So it's an awkward situation, however you put it.
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
So i would have to push the naturals back to the edge somewhat.. :(
I dont wanna. Will test more.

modified by CrystalDrag
CrystalDrag
Minor update
Freakling
This post is not displayed due to its content
CrystalDrag
BTW, there is a TL thing where i am getting feedback from players.
Freakling
And you are just too lazy to even post the link :P

EDIT: Ah, so you used my latest wallin idea :D

Can you make a picture of the melee version, not the obs?
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
And yes i am lazy ^^
And yes i did ^^
And yes i did ^^

Oh and freakling I lost my reason to make the desert map after you made (4)Chemlab ;/
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
...

?!!?:(

Chemlab isn't really like that map...
But the symmetry would work very nicely, if you rotate it by 90 (So bases are at top/bottom)...
And I was hoping to motivate others to try the same symmetry...

Definitely guarantees a high degree of uniqueness, because the only thing you can really compare it to is Gaia...

Most importantly, there is a significant lack of good axially symmetric maps around here, so anything well made like that would be a good pick for the next map pack...
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
So we should pick Chemlab! ^^
But i will still work on it. I may pick new tileset though.

Merry Christmas
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
Why new tileset? To avoid the Grand Line association?
And Merry Christmas to you!
CrystalDrag
4.3 Fix the observer version.
Also there is a problem, where bottom left cannot wall one rax+one depot for a ling tight walls while the others can.
traceurling
Lol I think all of us need to work on our walling skills
CrystalDrag
.-. Not i. I just use tiles that cover entire edges... Temple unfortunately has a zergling wide unbuildable gap at the bottom part..
CrystalDrag
--------------------------------------------
4.4
Overlord spot fixed...
Nats extended backwards, due to crampness

debating whether to make the ruin on the jungle everflowish ramps. unnecessary, but would be cool..
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
Don't. Just blend the ramps with the ruins as they are.
modified by Freakling
CrystalDrag
Alright, I am going to post on iccup for feedback :)
traceurling
I played two games on it (first one we restarted cuz friend wanted to test out walling) he says FFE has a weird wall although I don't kno anything about walling...what I noticed is that minerals have really weird mining sometimes, I spawned in bottom right and bottom left, on right the bottom most mineral was weird I can't remember left it was either most bottom or top...te drone just went to like te bottom of the patch instead of te side of the patch...I'll upload the replay later but I went a weird like 4 hatch crackling build so it won't show much
CrystalDrag
... I will check this out. thank you for testing.
What race was he? Protoss or terran?

And i am not sure if race is important when minerals are mined, like how the gas is.

Also, i am not sure if the mineral field matters...
modified by CrystalDrag
Freakling
Unfortunately race makes a difference...
I don't know why, but my hypothesis is that different collision sizes of main buildings lead to differences in path finding for workers...
CrystalDrag
****.
9/18/12 - 1/18/13
T_T I HAVE BEEN WORKING ON FOR 4 MONTHS?

Anyway.. I redid them T_T

Also i get tired scrolling down :)
modified by CrystalDrag
traceurling
You can delete this map and repost? Or make a new map post I don't think people would care if you made a second map thread for this since you've worked so hard. He was Protoss, but I haven't watched replay yet so all I kno is my drone was mining weird. It's kinda weird, here's a description of what it was like:
So I select the egg and instant it morphs I give command to mine cuz I'm efficient like dat :)
Drone goes to bottom of mineral to mine instead of side which is closet
I make the drone stop mining, manually position it at the side, give it command to move again
After that it was pretty normal...
I'm gonna try to get my friends to test this, but be warned I expect most of them to be D to E level, with the exception of me and maybe 2/3 friends who I'd estimate to be D/D+...and also among my friends (we play at school btw) dice the level is quite low cheese is often, me and one of my other friend's play Zerg, there's one E level Terran, and then like 10 protosses so dunno if our games will give much balance testing D:
CrystalDrag
\"So I select the egg and instant it morphs I give command to mine cuz I\'m efficient like dat :)\\\"
o.o I usually larva trick with the drone that immediately spawns, then send it to mine ;)

Download the updated map (already fixed it)
Do you play on ICCUP or other server? i would like to observe, but i cant get the iccup server onto my list..

And i would feel bad, and i would have to relink all the other maps of this series.
modified by CrystalDrag
traceurling
Ithere should be a goto bottom button at the top D:
Oh dammmnnn this whole time I've been trying to figure out how to do larva trick without using ov niiceee
I wish but most of the time we play on LAN cuz its at school sorry, I'll save all my reps tho...
Taranok
don't you guys have an "end" button?
CrystalDrag
Yes now you can do it more efficient. :P
And we do not. o_o
traceurling
Uploaded replay if youre interested..
JungleTerrain
I can try and help with some testing, I'm like C rank on ICCup, so I'm at least halfway decent (I think).
CrystalDrag
*Terran wallin fixed for NW
*Minerals at natural of SW Changed to allow similar turret space.
*Some Decoration changes.
*Pylon guide placement.
*Ramp's tiles fixed.

Two replays uploaded. One shows how well the backdoor is used when contained on the low ground by lurkers, but i still lost. Cause i suck.
Other one shows what happens when you forget about the 1 tile gap.. Which i considering to block with an egg..
Replays


--traceurling vs =TheScoutMaster=(1on1, 1.16)
--CrystalDrag vs Ty2(1on1, 1.16)
--tote vs Ty2(1on1, 1.16)

Upload replay for this map
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