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Last update for (3)Frogstar World B : 2018, 02, 07 23:44
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
4879 (3)Frogstar World B 128*128Freakling1.4betaground

The map has been rated 44 times and got a total of 60 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


JungleTerrain
I couldn't see anything when I was on my phone :O

Zerg third gas looks pretty difficult to hold from a quick mnm push, like from a 4 or 5rax.

I like the use of space though.
NegativeZero
nice map name, i guess this is the total perspective vortex?
modified by NegativeZero
Freakling
Actually, this is (3)Terraform ;D
Freakling
I just realized that the picture does actually not the newest WIP state of the map. Updated it now.

I couldn't see anything when I was on my phone :O

That's actually what I am a bit afraid of. Ash terrain basically being dark grey on somewhat darker grey makes the minemap somewhat hard to read. Given that this map has quite the complex structure, I am going to do the utmost with deco to make it as readable as possible, lest players not get lost...

Zerg third gas looks pretty difficult to hold from a quick mnm push, like from a 4 or 5rax.

Not quite sure which expansion you are referring to. Probably not the free main and nat, which most Zerg players will probably take as 3rd and 4th. If you are referring to the close gas expansion you are right that would be utter suicide and not only for Zerg (although tanks can somewhat defend it and I have seen Protoss achieve amazing defences with just cannon spam, but 61024m + 5k g is still not really worth that risk early on). As for the far/neutral gas expansion, I hope the updated picture makes it clearer what I intend it to be like. There will be only two tight chokes, blockable by a single pylon and with vision blockers (should make stuff like tanking it from outside a lot harder and forces a terran to scan first or rush in with their m&ms blindly).

nice map name, i guess this is the total perspective vortex?

Seriously though, Terraform actually inspired this a lot. I was wondering: How did you create that spiral in the SC2 editor? Because I actually ended up numerically approximating circle involutes and hand-plotting them into a pencil sketch to get what I wanted...
modified by Freakling
JungleTerrain
huh?
JungleTerrain
and thirds look much better for z now
Freakling
Well, seems like I did not type my answer fast enough ;D
JungleTerrain
The stuff in the middle is kinda confusing in the sense that you cannot tell if it is high dirt clutter or doodads, at least from the picture. How does it look on the minimap?
This is one of the reasons I just never make ash maps...
Freakling
Those are vision blockers (there are more of these under the minerals of the close gas expos and in the chokes to the far neutral gas expos).
modified by Freakling
NegativeZero
yeah it kinda reminded me of terraform from the start, although i didn't want to stroke my ego and assume that my map influenced yours.

how did i do the spiral? i just eyeballed it, no mathematics involved whatsoever lol.
Jukado
Bit hard to take a 3rd. This map might be a good candidate for extra minerals in the main/nat. Also, consider putting in a backdoor ramp to the low ground expansion from the main. The map is quirky so it would fit.
Freakling
An additional main ramp, besides completely being beside the point of and thus ruining the concept, would just completely screw up pathfinding. This map is already complex enough as it is.

Adding an additional mineral patch to the nat, mineral only and/or outer 3rd would of course be an option, however, I don't think the 3rd is actually that bad. With an easy wall-in and the long attack distances defending it, like anything on this map, really comes down to good scouting, positioning and army control. P/T can always take a mineral only first.
Freakling
Some hours of work later...
CrystalDrag
some hours of work for only one ramp ;(
is it actually feasible to take a centre base in the spiral?
Freakling
Lots of other little edits (edges for the small ramps, adjustments to some cliffs and bases).

But yes, I am putting a lot of work into my ramps on these new maps. I do not only want to finally keep full control over terrain levels but also for them to look great, so I have to do everything from scratch, and since pick©ing does not help so much with these very specific ramp angles and stuff, it turns out to be rather a lot of work...

And yes, taking those bases is very dicey. They will probably make for some great late game resources to fight over.
Rickv100491
It is actually fun to edit each and every single place as how you want you know :P, and well you know that pleasure too :P, I actually like the design of this map a lot, it is amazing :D.
CrystalDrag
inverted 60 degree part of ramp is so disappointing :)
JungleTerrain
What u mean?

Merry Christmas
JungleTerrain
double post
modified by JungleTerrain
outscar
Wow new ramps are so awesome! Gonna test it out.
Jukado
I was talking about the mineral only lol.

But what with ASL using Benzene and Eye of the Storm etc, looks like far and wide 3rds are in fashion at the moment so go for it!

Because the 3rd is hard and its a windy map, and also just generally 3 player map with their wonky main shapes, (and the tileset) the map is not to my usual tastes. But actually Ive come around to it and I really like it.

Maybe teal main could be made a bit bigger on the bottom edge, so its slightly less triangular and more of a rectangle. And red and blue mains made a bit smaller.

I still think a backdoor ramp would work quite nicely here infact. That or maybe even 10 minerals in the main and 8 in the nat like Central Plains.
Freakling
Layout should be pretty final now. Vision blockers and wall-ins are fully functional. I hope I can get some good mining going. Lots of deco yet to be done...
Jungleterrain
Nice, looks good so far. Wonder what you'll do with deco. I find it hard to make ash maps look good
Freakling
I am actually going to mostly use big broken rock areas for the spiral to get some contrast on the mini map.
Freakling
Mining should be mostly good now. Still need to run full tests for T and Z though.

EDIT: All testing done, sweet spot found!
(also reworked the centre expansions so scarabs can wreck the hell out of all the worker lines from behind.)
modified by Freakling
JungleTerrain
When you do decoration I'm guessing you use the isometric brush in some parts. Do you know if the brush when it touches a part of a wall or other terrain and changes the tiles to another set of subtiles (with different walk-ability properties), this changes pathing around the map? or resource gathering pathing?
JungleTerrain
Double comment
modified by JungleTerrain
Freakling
If it changes walkability properties (which for some cliff tiles it would) then it can change pathing (or changes could aggregate to something significant).
Therfore I am completely hand-crafting deco right now (not only because of that but also because it allow me a lot more freedom in shaping and avoids the fringe dirt spaces around cliffs.

I guess you are asking because of Uzi Sara? One thing you can do is just copy all the original cliffs back on from a copy of the map.
JungleTerrain
I was wondering in general i guess. not really for any particular map. thnx
Freakling
Since I always do my cliffs first in general, if I isometric-edit my deco afterwards, I first select all cliff lines nearby which I want to remain unchanged into the brush (via shift-secting in terrain layer, ctrl-c), then do the iso-editing, then copy the cliffs back in. You can also just copy them in from a safety copy of the map, of course, or just safe the complete brush to disk for later use (there is a brush palette in the "windows" options for that, in case you don't know).

I guess, with a map like this, where all the cliffs are completely done before I even start the rest of the deco (due to the heavy amount of manual cliff editing required to actually make good ash cliffs) I could actually just safe all the cliff lines as a brush to have them quickly available later...

Feel free to issue me a warning if my sentences become too tapewormy again...
modified by Freakling
Freakling
Update

Well, it's not exactly done yet. I'll have to go over all the deco another time... Still lots of deco missing as well. I also need to do some final changes to some of the ramps (to equalize vision properties). But at least this is a step forward and completely playable now.
modified by Freakling
JungleTerrain
Oh wow, you make ash world decoration look cool :O
Freakling
I am actually still far from content with it. It literally lacks some coherence on the larger scale. It's also not nearly as defined on the minimap yet as I had hoped, so I will have to manually edit over it one more time (whom am I kidding, this is already 100% manually put together right now... Mad amount of work.), selecting for lighter tiles specifically.
And then I still need to decorate the buildable areas with some doodads and rocky dirt tiles...
And test mining once more, unfortunately, because of the changes to the ramps...
JungleTerrain
That sounds like absolute hell
Ovalient
:0 Awesome Map!
modified by Ovalient
Rickv100491
Although as I look on the picture it looks nice and so... but wondering... there's enough space for fighting? and isn't terran favored in the map?? wondering though and this is making assumptions without downloading the actual map.
Freakling
You have to consider that there are the wide ramps everywhere, so it is not the spaces between the spirals you have to consider and there are so many pathways around the map that there is always a way to set up a flank from another angle and crush an enemy army from behind. Distances are also rather long and third gas options either far or very risky to take, so Terran will need to stay on two bases for a relatively long while.
Rickv100491
Oh ok that's why I said wondering. :)
Jukado
Yeah for my money this map is definitely not terran favoured. P can even pylon prison harass on the main min lines at left and right spawn.
Meanwhile being 3 player is always good for P and Z for air space.
Bases are hard to take for Terran here, some are mineral onlies too (affecting ZvT). Paths are long and windy, lots of strong flank options.
Looks wise its lovely and its technically very impressive too with the layout, the curved ramp work, etc. I cant make maps like this.
but i did say in my first comment in the thread
"Bit hard to take a 3rd. This map might be a good candidate for extra minerals in the main/nat. Also, consider putting in a backdoor ramp to the low ground expansion from the main. The map is quirky so it would fit."
Those were my warning attempts. Freakling preferred to stick to the plan in this case and that is fine.
Do I want to watch games on this map though? yes.
Do I want to be proved wrong? sure.
Its the same as with Camelot though, I said about Camelot in its own thread "I reckon it would play in a way not to my liking but its executed nicely."
Out of the blue it became an ASL map and has played as expected. Mind you it had a ton of changes. Im offtopic sorry, Camelot in the Camelot thread.
modified by Jukado
Freakling
I'd rather go for more conventional solutions for potential balance concerns:
One would be to use the expansion distribution from Hazard Black, i.e. make the two close bases both half gas, 1024 mineral per patch bases. This is a potential I kept in the back of my head while making this map. This would give T/P more options for close 3rds. Ramps at the close counterclockwise base could also be shrunk, though I would prefer to keep both close bases rather open and vulnerable to compensate for the proximity to the nat and avoid strong rotational bias.
The other easy change would be making the third a more standard high ground one, with or without vision blockers at the ramps. This would give P/T more of a defensive edge.
Jukado
Oh yeah at this point I certainly wouldnt do anything like the backdoor idea.

Maybe a half gas at the mineral only would be ok yes. (not much space for it though so Id maybe not). I would not make the mineral patches reduced amounts. If you can hold a 3rd base you deserve to get (and will need) the full amount of minerals from it. Same for all the expansions, Id have them at full 1500 mineral patches.

Maybe shrinking the ramps into the mineral only would be ok yes. Im not sure I would do that though. The defender wants to be able to defend the mineral only with a mobile force in a way.
Perhaps could just shrink the outer ramp though. Ofcourse that would introduce the rotational bias that you dont want. So again Id probably leave as is for now.

When you say "The other easy change would be making the third a more standard high ground one, with or without vision blockers at the ramps."
are you talking about the current low ground expansions on the edge of the map? I wouldnt call them 3rds so just checking. These bases are too far away to matter in the phase of the game Im thinking about so dont need to change them. Yeah the current low ground bases at 1,5 and 9 o clock are fine.
If you mean turning the 3 centre expos into highground bases, well thats a ton of work so I doubt you mean them.

But you dont need to actually change anything. I am not categorically saying terran has no chance, just that it is not terran 'favoured' for sure, which is the word RickV used.

Id probably just stick with the plan as you have been doing and I think it will be very good.
modified by Jukado
Freakling
With 3rds I mean the 1/5/9 o'clock gas bases, yes, as in: They are actually the safest spots for a P/T to get a third gas.

Protoss can certainly take their centre base as third (is there any base a Protoss cannot take with enough Cannon spam?!), but the investment/ risk to reward ration is certainly not great for it.
Terran with mines, tanks and a floating building over the minerals (plus some depots for a semi-wallin) is probably the one who is actually easiest able to secure that base (Othello would be a good example for how a vulnerable, close distance forward 3rd is good for Terran). I may be wrong though (forward 3rd on Hazard Black was bad for Terran or at least had most foreign Terran players complain, which is why I added another geyser to the backdoor expo).
Zerg probably should only take that expo as a 4th or even later, they just have so many better options and will need some Lurkers, Swarms and a sizeable ground army to really have enough area control.
sTY_leZerG-eX
Hey guys! Long time!!


FUCK!!!! THIS IS GOOD!!!

love it ;)


Top base minerals is so that workers have the same distance as other bases right?

How do the minerals work on a normal battle? Or are they just for the obs version?
modified by sTY_leZerG-eX
Freakling
The minerals and critters around the SL push the initial worker spawn around to the top, so they do not need to go around the resource depot when splitting. They are hallucinated, so they will disappear after 2 minutes (which is before any scout timing).
JungleTerrain
Is Sty_lezerg coming back? :)
CrystalDrag
Would an Overlord on Kiseyras in the NW position be able to see the hallucinated minerals of the N position?...
Freakling
No.
Freakling
Deco still not complete, but I did lots of minimap optimizations (selecting for lighter tiles on the broken rock areas, selecting against dark tiles on the high ground, selecting against bright red tiles on some of the magma areas).
JungleTerrain
I like how the thirds and naturals make a nice hexagon. Looking great Freakling
Lyra
I didn't read any of the other comments, so maybe this has been addressed before: I think blue's gas being against the map edge with no space behind it is actually a pretty bad positional imbalance favouring blue. His geyser is significantly less vulnerable to muta harass, for example.

I think 4expos per base is plenty for a (3)map. I know the extra one is a min only, but even if it's the safest of the expansions past the nat I don't think anyone is going to actually try and secure it anyway. Maybe a zerg who is already ahead will stick a hatchery there because why not, but otherwise I think it's useless. Admittedly I dunno what you'd actually do with that space if you removed it, but a useless expansion may as well be wasted space anyway. My best idea with how to use that space if you decided to remove the expansion would be to use the space to both correct the positional imbalance I noted above and open up these side paths more. I think they're too constricted given how tight and controllable the main set of paths into the center are. To clarify: I view the pathing out of the nat as having 2 directions: one towards the center which breaks up into 3 sub-paths (gas expansions path, silly-ramp path, and lowground path) and the second leading through the min-only expo. I don't mind the first path being a little tight since it breaks up well into three distinct sub-paths, but I think it might be nice if you opened up what I'm referring to as the second path (min-only path).

I notice you left enough room behind the central expansions' mineral lines such that a player could potentially expand behind that. Since you chose to make that possible, why not build the geyser in the middle of the mineral formation to actually promote that actually happening? I dunno if there'd be any pathing issues with workers popping out of the geyser-building on the wrong side though.

Speaking of pathing, how is it? Does stuff ever get caught on the central expansions' mineral lines?
Freakling
Natural geysers: I made them all easily coverable by Turrets (Turrets reach far enough that an easy fly-by along the map border is not possible and there are no cliffs behind to cover mutas). Furthermore, Muta harassment mostly concerns TvZ, and by the time Mutas hit Terran are usually still on only one gas. So overall I consider this issue rather minor and an acceptable.

15 bases/12 gas in total is pretty normal for a 128 map. FS has 13/14, CB has 16/12, Aztec and Outsider both have 15/12, Demian has 12/12 but expanding counterclockwise is quite far, Triathlon and (3)Hazard Black even have 15/15, (3)Demonio Azul has only 12/9, but I would consider it a low resource map by all means.
Please consider that there are no useless expansions. Centre expansions like on FS, Gladiator or Andromeda may not ever be taken in the vast majority of games, but that does hardly make them useless. They are simply reources worth fighting for in late game when everything else is starting to become exhausted and are actually pretty valuable due to their double gases. It is all about risk-reward balancing. Same principle here: You can either take a close but very exposed gas base, a close and more easily defended but mineral-only base, or a further away but less exposed and higher yield gas expansion. You may want to skip the two former early on for the safer base and higher reward, but that only means you'd take the closer expansions as a 4th or 5th base. Or vice versa, you may want to delay a third gas for the benefit of an easier to reinforce mineral-only base (a strategy commonly adopted by P/T on maps like Aztec, Match Point, Polaris Rhapsody or Blue Storm for example).
The main nat-to-nat path actually forks into three almost equidistant paths: through the centre, behind the close third and through the close third, with two additional slightly longer routes as a more sneaky, but still viable alternative through the mineral only or along the low ground form the centre.

As for the central expansions: I left that space so players could place down static defenses or spotting buildings on the other side, if they wish so. I made sure the buildable area is big enough to also proxy two Gates/Rax/Facts. Allowing for a resource depot (and Comsat for Terran) to be placed there was only a minor step ahead to be considered from there. Basically, there was no good reason not to allow it, and for balance reasons, it should be allowed on all locations or none, even if the incentive for a player to actually take that expansion from that side is rather fringe.
Putting the geyser on the centre line with the minerals would cause too many troubles:
  • Finding a gas position that actually mines well and allows for ideal mineral distances from both sides is basically impossible.

  • As you already noted, worker respawns on the wrong side of the mineral line would be a major headache.

  • There is also a problematic interaction between vision blockers and geysers, the geyser would have to be scouted by air or from behind first before a gathering building can be constructed. I'd rather avoid the outrage about a problem most players are probably not equipped to wrap their head around.

  • Not to speak of the gathering building then becoming attackable from behind without air vision...


So overall, I opted for allowing players to make equal, if suboptimal, strategic choices for all positions, rather than introducing a ton of bugs and rage bait for insignificantly improving that strategic choice that hardly any player would ever made to begin with...

If you just send all your units from one nat/rally point to another main/nat on attack move, they will usually split between the different paths (depending on your exact rally point) and some of them bump into the expansion. However, they will usually find their way around it, unless you do something stupid, like sending units from the centre on a direct attack command to one of the centre expansions...
modified by Freakling
Freakling
Update: Version 1.00
finished deco.
modified by Freakling
JungleTerrain
Submitting to ASL soon?
Freakling
Too tired now. Will do it tomorrow night.
Freakling
You can now download the observer version to get a complete map pack with melee version and various observer versions. Just remove the *.scx double extension and open as a zip.
Freakling
Small bugfix update, and another anecdote about the crazyness of BW pathfinding:
I had accidentally replaced two unwalkable doodad tiles tiles at the top barrier expansion with normal walkable ground, about two or three minitiles worth of unwalkable area. This led to not one but two mining bugs springing up. On two different expansions. On the other side of the map: left main and bottom nat...
Well, it's fixed now...
modified by Freakling
Freakling
Minor update: deco fix.
JungleTerrain
Did you change anything? Why was this bumped?
Freakling
Mini update: Version 1.01:

Changed some cliff tiles at the 7 o'clock and 11 o'clock natural chokes to facilitate some Protoss wallins that can block out lings with Forge, Gate one Pylon and two Zealots only.
Freakling
Update: Version 1.03:
  • Added a 7th mineral patch to the mineral onlies
  • fixed and optimized lots of pathfinding realted issues
Rickv100491
Please do tell that this incredible map, was chosen to be on the asl.... if not... well dunno what to think...
Freakling
Might be they don't even consider my maps because I screwed up sending them the download link. Still haven't got back a thing.
Rickv100491
ouch.... who knows, maybe is a possibility.... although... I was really hoping to see this one in the asl regardless of whoever thought whatever :)
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