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Last update for (2)StarCraft Remaster Di : 2017, 04, 01 17:44
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
4888 (2)StarCraft Remaster Di otherKantu0.2utilityother

The map has been rated 23 times and got a total of 5 points
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Kantuva
So, it has been finally announced.

https://starcraft.com

I have just soooo, many questions. How will they handle map pools? It seems they will have a automated match making like SC2, how much control does blizzard want to have regarding the E-Sport side of the game? Over the years we all pretty much know that Blizz is simply too slow to handle things like Map Pools, WC3, SC2 are living proof of it.

I have got my own ideas, but I really want to hear what you guys think about it.

Also, I think it is same to say that we all are praying to god that scmdraft2 still works after this is over. Be it for BW or BWHD
outscar
This map is effin' cool!

Let's wait and see. I think that Blizz isn't going to screw up this one.
Freakling
This should be a forum or news article...

Well, I hope they won't screw over map makers by invalidating existing editors or significantly changing textures. Anything that would invalidate the existing map pool would be a setup to failure for them to begin with, so I think there is at least some incentive for them to not do that.
Somehow I have my doubts that they will fix any of the terrain related bugs and issues in the game (such as terrain level bugs)...
From the standpoint of general popularity of the game, this could certainly be an improvement, but only if it keeps true to the legacy, from a map making point of view there is mostly a lot of things that could go downhill very steeply in the short term...

EDIT: Actually, looking at the example on the site, I do not like the new look at all. Sure, it is higher resolution and probably wide screen compatible, but it also looks a lot, and I mean a lot, more cartoonish than the original. Just look at the minerals, the creep or the morphing building. Seems like a lot of the textures miss a lot of the original details (which is doubly bad in higher resolution) and the original gloss effects (which are really what makes BW graphics look so nice) also seem to be mostly missing. I really hope they improve on the renderings before releasing it.
On the plus side: it really seems like they are trying to keep true to the original look, and since they will probably not change the map format either, old maps (and map editorsa) will probably remain valid...

EDIT 2: Seeing that some of the examples are actually from (3)Demian, map compatibility should be fine. However, it would probably be better to not crank up saturation and contrast that high. Look at the asphalt, for example: The rougher grooves seem to be overly pronounced, but the finer structure in between looks mostly flatened out.
modified by Freakling
neobowman
I honestly don't mind the graphics. Ill probably play on original graphics but I'm just excited about the fact that there will be an overhaul for the UI. Makes all the UI overhaul projects moot. I'm mostly just excited for the new blood this brings into the scene.

I'm betting custom terrain will be pretty fucked tho.
modified by neobowman
jungleterrain
If you don't like the graphics you can just stick to the original.

Happy because this means more attention and possibly new players to the scene...

I was hoping that they would change the elevation bugs as well as new doodads and a revamped editor or new tiles with reverse ramps/ extended ramps. But we've done without them for a while so I'm sure we can do without them now, would be a great thing for the future though. I mean every tile set has blank null tiles anyways, they could replace those.

What I don't understand is how they stated that replays will be fully compatible when they stated that valks will now fire no matter what. As far as I know a replay is just the list of commands recorded and the game plays it out on the engine. Is this wrong? If that's the case then what about a replay in which valkyries are present? They will act differently in 1.16 than in 1.18... in the former they won't shoot in certain scenarios, in the latter they will. There will be a different outcome.

As for me,
This makes me wanna put more effort in producing content in BW, whether it be maps or w/e else it might be.
Freakling
Well, you can just change internal game settings to match the version of the replay to make it backwards-compatible, I guess.

A powerful native map editor would of course be great, to make get the best tile blends for the new version. As for changing terrain bugs : I guess most stuff has been figured out and actually become a feature by now. The only thing I would like to see is to have those cliffs, ramps and doodads fixed, where terrain levels are definitely wrong (ramps for rusty pit, high temple, high basilica, high compound, high outpost, high sunken ground, high sandy sunken pit ; doodads for high basilica, high compound, high outpost ; various odd cliff edges across all tile sets where the higher ground extends beyond the unbuildable cliff). however, even that would probably induce a lot of new bugs to a lot of existing maps. It would fix a lot more, though!

Maybe we should write an e-mail to the developers. It is not yet released...
modified by Freakling
JungleTerrain
I would be down to!!! Freakling we should.

We need to state why those changes are important as well. You already posted on TL a lot of the information that we would need to send them

Part of the reason why BW has lived this long is because of the custom map community, whether it be us making melee maps or the UMS community. But we are a silent group for the most part...
Freakling
There is a forum.
Some quetsions regarding map compatibility and editors have been asked already, but so far no real feedback...

Obviously there are not public e-mail adresses to be found to directly contact the developers, would have to contact tech support or e-sports team first...
modified by Freakling
Kantuva
I think that's an excelent idea, I'm not sure if these things can be fixed.
But getting said issues on their mind would for sure help if they decide to keep hammering some more annoying bugs like those away.

I sent a message to Rackle, one of the SC2Team Community Managers asking which way he thinks might be the best way to contact the BW:R DevTeam. I'll be sure to post here wherever time he answers back.

Until then, if you feel like it, I think it would be pretty good to make a thread on the official BW:Remake forums, I know for certain that the community managers scour over the official forums. And the DevTeam will probably be around checking things out on said new forums at least for the next couple days as a small celebration for a successful"annoucement".

EDIT: Sorry, edited this instead of posting my own by mistake. Changed it back now...
modified by Freakling
Freakling
I think that's an excelent idea, I'm not sure if these things can be fixed.
But getting said issues on their mind would for sure help if they decide to keep hammering some more annoying bugs like those away.

It's just changing some numbers/flags in the terrain file...

I sent a message to Rackle, one of the SC2Team Community Managers asking which way he thinks might be the best way to contact the BW:R DevTeam. I'll be sure to post here wherever time he answers back.

Thanks. Maybe something comes out of it.

Until then, if you feel like it, I think it would be pretty good to make a thread on the official BW:Remake forums, I know for certain that the community managers scour over the official forums. And the DevTeam will probably be around checking things out on said new forums at least for the next couple days as a small celebration for a successful"annoucement".

Rather than making some rather vague post about some issues that will probably be ignored, I'd rather try and throw together a complete documentation... Or at least a detailed description with relevant examples to document those bugs.
For a start it would be nice to know whether anything in terms of an official map editor is planned. Apart from the lack of new graphics support, SCMDraft will probably still do the job just fine, but I'd also like to have additional debugging options, such as displays of all tile properties, available.
modified by Freakling
Kantuva
If this were SC2 DevTeam I would advise you to simply try to stay away from changing their minds, but I saw that interview to the producer and it was heartwarming seeing the care the took regarding the feelings the community has regarding the game. How they actually took the care to tune details and such.

But yeah, you have a far deeper understanding of the BW engine than I do, regarding the ease of changing/fixing said terrain bugs.

I'm not sure if Rackle will answer me today tho, since it is sunday and in the past he has avoided doing so. If you feel like it, write out the documents you feel are needed for them to understand the problem, and which tools you would want to have for QA/Debugging. Wherever Rackle says about which way we can contact the DevTeam I'll make sure to reach, but I would still recommend you to make the forum thread, as producers and the devteam itself still care about public opinion and reception on these matters.

What I wanna get at, is to try and contact them on as many ways as possible, I think it would be fucking amazing if you made a TL thread posting the documentation too, as that is for certain to give a strong playerbase support for giving mapmakers more official Debugging/QA tools.
JungleTerrain
Yes let me know if I can help with anything, I think Freakling is more articulate than me in mapping matters and he's pretty good with words, but idk I have spring break right now so this is when I am most free... 1 week and then I'm back in the grind.

Thing is, THIS is the time if we want anything changed I think. What other better opportunity will there be? I think posting on TL and getting support and public opinion behind it so devs will feel compelled to take a look is important.
NegativeZero
oh look it's uvantak, welcome to the bw cave
outscar
There's a forum specially for SC:R:
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/sc2/19369620/

But not for US battle.net though, strange.
Kantuva
Okay, Rackle said yes, he's in charge of managing the communication between the BW community and the DevTeam currently in charge of BW:R

If you guys make some docs reporting bugs or features you really want, I can easily ask Rackle to forward the documents to the BW DevTeam.

Important, assume that they will not update StarEdit, so try to talk about bugs with the engine, or textures. Heck, maybe they would be willing to do some recolored ground textures and such.

---
Hi Neg0! :3


JungleTerrain
Ugh I don't want to type this on fone but w/e...

I think we can separate what we "want" into 3 specific things related to mapmaking (more or less, remind me if I'm missing anything), with each having a different level of difficulty in implementing into the game. In assessing difficulty I am making my own assumptions; I don't code or anything like that, so I am going off my limited knowledge. And here I'm talking about mapmaking, not changes to the game engine.

I think it is important for the information to be presented in this way so that the developer team can decide which ones they want to do and which ones they do not. I'm sure some of these can be subdivided further to get more particular or w/e, or maybe lump them up differently.

1) Fixed elevation bugs on doodad ramp tiles - Freakling already made a post on his map thread on TL showing all the tiles and elevation properties of all the doodad ramps. There are also tiles outside of doodads that grant weird properties (elevation-wise). An example are those dirt-outpost tiles with high elevation properties around the outpost, giving units the ability to essentially look over the wall and even grant them hit percentage misfire.

Obviously there are some tiles with weird effects that have actually become features (like the tiles in freaks Desertec. These should not be touched.

I put this as #1 because as noted above (and I believe this to be true, I could be wrong) this is probably an easy fix but with huge benefits for melee mapmaking (UMS maps too). It seems like only a change in the number/flag in the terrain file is needed. How easy is it actually? I wouldn't know.

Another thing is making ramps symmetrical... like the desert ramps are for some reason differing in elevation in identical parts for no reason. This creates minor positional imbalances if used in maps. No reason for this at all.

However this opens up many possibilities for melee mapmaking because it would mean that some terrain which was unusable before (for competitive maps) could be used and it opens up the possibilities for mapmakers and map concepts. There are ideas for maps that as of now cannot be implemented because of these limitations.

2) New doodad ramp tiles - each tile set in broodwar has null tiles, and a lot of them. Seeing as these are almost never used in maps (I can only think of UMS maps that might use them) I believe some of them should be switched out for actual doodad tiles for reverse ramps, or extended ramps, and for different elevations and terrain types for each tile set.

This would for the first time give maps natural in-game reverse or extended ramps. An important thing to take into consideration is the elevations and length/width of inverted ramps should be as symmetrical as possible.

A limitation to this is that the dev team would have to come up with the art work for the new ramps... BUT let's not overlook the fact that maps have already been making use of custom terrain. The most efficient way to do this would probably be to take a custom ramp that looks good (there are plenty of them),
Crate art work based off that, and add it into the game with correct elevation and other properties. Maybe the team could be given suggestions of custom ramps or other terrain to look at and create something based off that.

If null tiles are not replaced then possibly adding more tiles to each tile set and adding them there would work as well. The important thing is to not touch the location of the other indexes tiles or else this would mess up existing maps.

3) Additional features to Staredit or a revamped editor - part of the reason why BW has survived this long is because people can create custom maps and content for the game through editors. I for one, whenever I get tired of melee games, will pop into some WW2 or Diplo games sometimes, even some turret defense game or something like that. And it's FUN. I say this because it speaks to the importance of a robust custom user-made mapmaking community. They add longetivity to an already great game.

It would be great if Blizzard showed them some love but also give them the tools to create even better custom content.

I don't have a list of what features I'd like to have implemented personally, but I'm sure Freak and other melee mapmakers, along with people making UMS maps (people over at Staredit.net) do.

Seeing as SCMDraft is the best map editor out there, they could potentially make a Staredit that is basically just SCMDraft, or has the same functions, or even more! Maybe they could get in touch with the creator (Suicidal Insanity) and ask him...

One thing that can be done... imagine if SCMDraft (or a revamped Staredit with SCMDraft's capabilities was offered as the "basic map editor" that comes with the game. I think this would get more people into map making. Staredit just sucks.
Freakling
My ramp article on TL is actually pretty outdated already. I did not know about CHKDraft's direct terrain display capabilities back then.

I think tomorrow I will go through all the tilesets (creating a big new map in CHKDraft actually gives the whole tile palette in map form, so it's just making a list of tile indices and some screenshots for documenting all the elevation errors.

Changing these would affect exisiting maps, of copurse, but with the exception of potentially introducing mining buggs (which most maps have plenty of anyway and can subsequently be patched back out again)

Changing anything about cover effect or vision blocking tiles would be crime, obviously. Too much yet unexplored potential lies there. Getting display options for those properties would be great, though, but that of course would require a new map editor.

I don't think native inverted ramps would really do much. Having some smooth reverse transitional tiles would be nice, but is not really essential and for different ramp angles, wider or curved ramps manual editing would still be required either way. I was considering publishing base versions some of my newer ramps as brushes for SCMDraft, though.
I guess coming up with some new artwork for reverse ramps would not be much of a problem, though, looks like they are having to redo a lot from scratch anyway.
It should also not be forgotten that a lot of maps (melee maps less so, except form some really weird ones, but certainly lots of UMS maps) actually use null tiles for one thing or another...

As far as I am aware of, Suicidal Insanity has been MIA for years now, which is why CHKDraft is in the works to replace SCMDraft; maybe, eventually, some day...

Speaking with UMS map makers about the future of EUD triggers (or something to replace them) would certainly be a good thing, but ideally this would also entail a new editor to come along with it.

Two other points I think that should be changed (which would have no bad impact on modern machines, but avoid some major problems):
  • Instead of the awfully over-specific "fix Valkyrie firing bug", just increase all sprite limits significantly. Absolute unit limit is another one easy to run into, but changing would absolutely not impact 1v1 melee play.

  • Make minimaps scale better with the longer edge always filling the whole width; 192 would be the ideal size for 8 player maps, but it just makes the minimap so freaking small....

modified by Freakling
JungleTerrain
Oh yeah the unit/sprite limit would definitely be a good change, especially when it comes to 8 player maps or UMS games
Freakling
Don't be surprised if you see a heavily refitted and well equipped editor put out by Blizzard.

So far it is only a "I don't really want to promise anything yet" kind of statement, but at least it is a positive one...
modified by Freakling
JungleTerrain
Huh that is interesting

U been doing some digging huh

And I hope it can do AT LEAST what SCMDraft can do. If not, it could possibly still have other features and could just be another tool in our tool belt
modified by JungleTerrain
Freakling
Well, so far it is just a non-committal statement from a forum mod, not even an official hint from the developers, so I would not be to excited about it, but at least it is not a definite "no".

Anyway, I have made my way all the way through to (and including) desert terrain (ice and twilight still to be done) and made a list off all the weird terrain stuff. Will be an interesting list. when it is done.
JungleTerrain
Will you post it anywhere?
Freakling
When it is done.
Freakling
Here's the shortlist:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1O1GkIAv9STVxGcTP7WiZn8p9bYGNIJ_cRJL44BOfyOw/edit?usp=sharing

As you can see it is mostly the broodwar terrains where whole sections of the palette need some serious reworking.

Maybe some one can write a little article on TL, I'll make some screenshots later...

EDIT: Sorry, wrong link ; should be viewable now.
modified by Freakling
JungleTerrain
Sent request to view document
Rickv100491
mmmmm
Freakling
I put this up as a bug report on TL.net.

Feel free to add anything you think should be added.
modified by Freakling
Freakling
Updated the list with some additional comments and clarifications.
Freakling
Added four more bugs for ash terrain that I overlooked for some reason...
Kantuva
Thanks for the list Freakling, I added it to the Document I'll forward to the SC:R devteam

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KRxV3nq3BQivvy_WVkUrhlIpZ1VFF9CVzvelaFQ5zSg/edit?usp=sharing
Freakling
About an EUD trigger replacement / new trigger conditions & actions : I think you (or some one very knowledgeable on Staredit.net) should make a complete "wishlist" of things that you can do right now or think you need and should be implemented.

Same for point 5 : Some one really should make a list of "essentials" that should ideally not be broken (although having a more consistent behaviour with things like doodad states could be good, I guess).

6. Instead of mp3 I would always prefer vorbis and flac support, simply because of the licensing...

EDIT: Nevermind, there's already a list below he document...

I'll add some more CHKDraft samples to the TL bug

One thing you absolutely need to add to the list:
Preserve unit sprite 299 functionality (also known as creep spawner). This is a unit which simpy reates a ~20x20 area of permanent creep (it also displays a 'sploding ovi animation at game start...). It is just way too cool to have around, and there are a few melee maps around which depend on it.

Another thing which I think is missing from the list is optimized minimap scaling (in-game, not just in the editor, of course). There is no good reason why a 192 map should not fill the whole minimap screen!

Also, if they fix the terrain level bugs, nothing else ought to be changed, tile property-wise. buildable unwalkable doodads, vision blocking fully walkable doodad tiles, cover providing fully walkable doodad tiles we need all of these, they are essential for lots of melee concepts if anything, we need MORE of these (like, at least one of each for every tileset that would be much better assets than some native inverted ramps).

And now I remember what else ABSOLUTELY needs to be on the list: we need options for ALL relevant time attributes (buildability, walkability, vision blocking properties and cover effect) to be displayed as a semi-transparent overlay as a debugging tool (just like now, when you select a unit to place, it shows an overlay of the unbuildable subtiles; CHKDraft's terrain level display option is invaluable, but unfortunately it is not semi-transparent, so you cannot see the terrain level and tile texture at the same time).
Seriously, if I had to pick just one singular feature a future editor for melee maps cannot possibly go without, it is this one!

And is there any chance to get into alpha/beta testing of a new editor 0_0 (and, just in general, get some more direct line of communication going with the devs and Suicidal Insanity, who is allegedly working on this)
modified by Freakling
Freakling
Also corrected some of the information in the spreadsheet, regarding the raised jungle doodad tiles.
Freakling
I added a lot more suggestions on Staredit.net. You should share your opinions too!
modified by Freakling
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