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Last update for (4)Sattarchasm : 2010, 08, 26 12:12
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
666 (4)Sattarchasm 128*128Starparty3.2league

The map has been rated 57 times and got a total of 183 points
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Melee

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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


Starparty
an easy map. perhaps that is my style atm. However i got a bit inspired by Tbmmitu by me and hefty by adding these bridged gasexpansions. if a player attacks there he can be backstabbed, alternatively deadlocked on in the expo when other player counters his army from behind.

All the expos can be hit from a mainbase to make the terran living just a little bit easier. The decoration is a mixed tribute to travin and summersky.

My concern so far is that it might be too much stuff in the center, but its always more room in-game than in staredit, so i hope we can play on it soon.
Listoric
Wow, it's awesome. It's just plain awesome.

Only thing are the doodads, maybe remove two of the 6 statues in the center... or make their circle around the temple bigger... well... thats the only sugguestion... it's awesome... (ahaha and isles are missing, u suck :P)
Listoric
btw, i had the "same idea" with the expansion next to the mainbase of one player, but the "way" to it near to the other player. Sugguested that as an improvement to Fatali i think. Very well done, i'm a bit angry that u used it like that actually ^^ but, as said, well done!
Starparty
i wanted a narrow center with many obstacles to terran can hide a bit. there are big areas to push on and that is hard enough as it is
ShaManT
gg Nostalgia =P haha jk. Good map.
decaf
Reminds me very much of arena.
Starparty
sorry but i cant see that. the positions are placed clockwise on this map and the bridged expansions are not present on arena. this changes the gameplay 150% and rising :P
Starparty
(imo)
Starparty
i focused mostly on making the 1nats positionally balanced for every player, and i think i succeded quite good
Starparty
map id 666 :)
flothefreak
I actually thought about making a map with 666-theme just for this idea

I drawed it and started making it, but well, as you surely saw, I am not making any maps atm...
flothefreak
"idea" should be "ID" 8[
Starparty
you had to time in the id too :o
LGI
Everything is fine, i've just test some things. Good job, starparty. Like i said in PGT, this map is reminding me some other map, but don't know wich... It seems balanced, and very open. But i don't see any new staff, that can change the gameplay. Anyway it is a good map!
Starparty
well ive come to realize that noone wants the gameplay changed... The game obviously is good as it is, still running in ~8 years
Travin
imo you should remove the rocks behind the bridges, so that protoss have a fair chanse deffing a third expo in pvz and make those expos unlurkable could also be good
or atleast make it so cannons can def the cliff easier

this can compensate that the mineral only is very vulnerable for attacks and that the entrance is quite big to main (except blue) so fastexpo might also be hard in pvz

have you tested blues and purps mineralonly if they can be hit from the other expo with tanks?

well i think you need to do something to make pvz eaiser beacause, 1 long distances, 2 open natrual (with cliff), 3 quite hard to def 3rd expo
Travin
and thanks for the tribute :]

but that straight cliff at purps nat annoys me! make a cliff blob there or something hehe
LGI
"have you tested blues and purps mineralonly if they can be hit from the other expo with tanks?"

I do. Everything is fine.
Starparty
Good comments trav. If you find anythign at all even close to positional imbalance, tell it :) i fixed your issues.
Starparty
fixed "blob" too :)
flothefreak
is it on purpose that the mineral placement at _every_ expansion is exactly this of all its equipollents?
:D
Starparty
balancing! :P

wanna game? im online. (16:12 cet tuesday)
Travin
purps main is little smaller i dont know if thats a issue tho

entrance to purp, red and blues nat = 12 squares
entrance to teal = 10

i checked some other things but it looks like you have been very precise when making this map
Starparty
the sizes are unchangeable, and it doesnt matter too much, the entry i will look into. The map is flowing just fine besides that, and it is really easy to comprehend
Starparty
there, 12 squares on all pos :)
XuuL
very nice one!
XuuL
but could u remove some mins... making the exp 7 mins and the outlying nat a 6 mins expo ?
Starparty
But this played quite ok imo. Its basic Lt layout, with a extra 2 8 mineral gas etc.. they are valuable areas, and with 6 minerals they wont be as valuable... i will play it some to find out first
Starparty
well ive come to realize some problems balancewise which i might need to think abit about.. seems like the map is very black and white in terms of gameplay, because terran can harrass almost every expo good, but the center stops them from moving anywhere. so it becomes a lockdown in the game when terran refuses to move out since he dies, but z or p doesnt ge any money cause of t siege :P

Comments?
XuuL
np, just think about Luna... its very balanced and has an even more open middle ^^
Starparty
i made a major update on the map, so its 0.1 right now :P

added a litle more losttemplish center and made all neutral expoes only 6 mins and safe from tanks above.

@Xuul, yea, but on luna you cans gay as much with tanks as you could on this map before update..
panschk
Luna
is
not
balanced!!!1111

Man I just can't stand that anymore :[
Starparty
yea w.e :P what about the updates?
XuuL
i liked the map more in the previous version ^_^
... and Luna is very balanced :P
XuuL
oh noooo damn... i wanted to have map ID 666 :(
Starparty
iono, i like this more i think. zeerg owned center on old, and terran owned bases. was just boring games
Listoric
I thik you forgot a doodad... somewhere x)

just kidding, i like it, but i also liked the previous version. the center with these walls now looks a bit to Tish, maybe smaller them just a bit, i like it.
panschk
swweeeet :)

about luna: If luna is balanced TvP, then pretty much all other maps must be horribly imbalanced favoring terran. Because you can't really do much more anti-terran than Luna.
LGI
Looks, very good. I like this version most. Really good job!
LGI
Btw, teal's expand is way too far... Just look at the other players. Their expands, are right infront of the ramps.
Starparty
balance balance balance :P
LGI
?
Starparty
You cant change the ramp position to the better and still be positionally balanced, without creating a tile ramp, and that is not wanted. a normal ramp is better in 99 times of 100 cases.
Listoric
I don't think it'S a problem. Little pos-imba that has to be accepted by the players. It serves for the same effectiveness of choke-covering.

You can't change it to the better i think, cuz it's already the best solution i'd say. gj btw.
LGI
Well, the first one get to headoff, was [7x]Spitfire as MyLifeForAiur :) . So we play 3 games with him. First he kick me at (4)Kin Dza Dza, i think he got the replay. Then we play on his map (4)Pride, and finnaly this one :) . Enjoy :)
Starparty
bah what bad micro by spitfire by not bringing reaver to attack until the goons were dead when you attacked him -.- unmotivated game ending :P
[7x]SpitFire
Yeah it was very bad, but I'm not disappointed :)
PvP is my worst match-up, I've played it 3 or 4 times last 4 month :) But anyway gameplay was very fun, map needs test with Z player in 1v1.. Hottest MoTW candidate atm. Didn't played other candidates including my map, but this map has outstanding playability.
P.S.
LGI, I watched the rep on Pride and found out the problem, 10x for it.
Today I will play on Headoff as Z :P
REAl4eVeR
I'll giv'em a try...
Starparty
my god, look at all those replays :o
Starparty
or is it from the headoff tour?
LGI
It's from the tour. Most of the repleys got description. In wich round and wich game is played.
yenku
terrible cliff over nat.. Not enough unbuildable terrain... Terran can bunk there and build turrets if they go fast starport. and good bye nat for toss.

happened to me without knowing it possible the first time i played the map on PGT no more pvt on that map for me. retarded as hell
AiurZ
that's not the maps problem as much as it is your own.
LGI
Watch LGI vs Team NaN(other, 1.13) 0-0 D (me) vs 10-0 D+ them :D
LGI
I wonder why this in the PGT map pack is (4)Sattarchasm+ and why the mineral placement is diffrent at mains?
flothefreak
they actually CHANGED the map itself?
Spitfire
It was remade by Bill oO
flothefreak
they shouldn't let a worse mapper integrate his own ideas -.-
ScoutWBF
Not even a BWMN logo in the corner.That sucks!Talk to the admins -_-
LGI
ScoutWBF have a point, almost all of the other maps got "WCG", "OGN", "MAPDORI" and shits, but no BWMN...

#2, flothefreak!
Starparty
atleast my name and bwm link is lef tin properties :P
LGI
Even the bottom right position is not that balanced... The resurs are moved forward, and now there is a lot of space behind the mins, the other locations are ok, but this...

It's not that big deal, but how a mapper like Bill, make so stupid moves?
Starparty
the biggest bug are the doodads on 1 pos leaning towards the neutral exp, because they block sight
maximumdan

modified by maximumdan
maximumdan
ya too bad about the logo. this is def the best map from bwmn to make it on.
Bill_307
I apologize for the jpeg: I never noticed bwmn has branded pictures.

The main minerals mine equally now, thanks to me.

LGI have you even LOOKED at the original map? I never touched the starting location for the bottom-right, and furthermore I moved the top-right CLOSER to the edge of the map, where it should be. I also added a piece of raised jungle to the bottom-right so that you can block it with a pylon or supply depot.

LGI so far you've given all praise to Starparty and all criticism to me. Would you like to know what I think about that?
LGI
Bill_307, i am sorry for the rush of criticism, i've notice the original one, about bottom-right location... Really i am sorry for that. I notice also the rised jungle.

Look i was just very pissed, mostly because of the picture. Somehow, there is the "PGT - " infront of the map, but there isn't any credit for www.broodwarmaps.net . The logo on the picture is fine for me.

You have to understand me, i am making tournaments with user maps, with a huge spaming of www.broodwarmaps.net , and i try to make most of the better user maps here populer. I also try to do this with playing on this map in Headoff server (i tried in europe, but it's very hard, only total newbs join the games in public...) .

And with all this spaming it's still not enought. And finally when a map is in the PGTour from BWMN, people still don't the author, and from where it is. When people enter PGTour, they know about mapdori, their logo is everywhere. On the website, on their maps. But BWMN is unknown... :(

Again sorry for the mistake.

P.S. Whats wrong with the original main minerals. From gaming i understand that the mineral placement as Starparty is making on his maps is best for wokers, they don't go from the back to gain resurs, etc... So i copy this style on my maps too. After playing more then 20 games on the PGT Sattarchasm, i've notice that my workers are going on the back to gain minerals, wich slows them down if i am zerg, because i don't make 298312083 drones like protoss or terran...
panschk[FP]
I do not think that is that much of a problem LGI. Whoever cares about melee maps knows us by now. The rest might or might not know Rose.of.Dream, Valkyrie or mapdori, they will at least not care about who made the map anyway.

I don't have any data on mineral placement. Actually if Bill really knows much more then we do about it, it would be nice to share the information as an article on bwmn with us:)
LGI
Well, from testing, starparty's mineral placement is best for BW's AI workers.
sp
the doodad sight issue is still very annoying though. We should do a full article on every doodad and their properties.
yenku
too much bill bashing =D
I dont think it would be much of a problem if you just asked them to update the pic on the site..
Other problems dont seem too big.
Map is still very cool, ill give it another chance.
Starparty
there are new ideas for a 1.1 update to balance pvz beter. smaller mains and smaller cliffs.. Ill try to create it asap
Spitfire
Sp, I think that the most horrible thing for P is zerg's third expansion, which can be extremely fast.
decafchicken
Toss is getting destrooooooooyed
Starparty
18000+ games :P

sattarchasm > arena?
LGI
Sure, and 43 games of those 18000 are mine in PGT >:P

Really i think this is the upgrade version of LT, becouse of the same use of the cliffs on nat expands. Like cannons with probes, tanks, lurker drop, and all this works with the same result as in LT. And somehow people get use to this map very fast, because of the use as in LT, and the thing that might attrackt the people more, are the +4 gas expands, wich are protected very well i think. I don't know but after playing this map, i have this very safe feel, and the LT feel.
modified by LGI
JK)Valkyrion
i agree to lgi
decafchicken
How can you feel safe on this map? Cliffs, easy dropping, its terrifying.
flothefreak
what are the doodads for, in your guess?
sp
Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us
Listoric
Ok, i talked to Carnac, to some known from TL.nte or BW.de maybe, and he had a good idea of why zerg is that strong against protoss on this map.

The first thing is obvious, the amount of gas is a Zergs paradise, still not that imbalanced, but a good base to produce lurker like an idiot. still, lurkers aren't a free win, but lurkers protecting the two bridges as well as a lurker drop on the natruals cliff give protoss a very hard time.

if protoss would have the chance to defend it's natural with cannons behind the mineralline (like 3 canons) clifflurks won't be the huge pain in the ass as they are now.

protoss need observer to see lurker. but if the lurker are already on your cliff, you have a hard time mining for shuttles, and observer, while zerg has an "easy going" taking the next gas expansion.

So, only thing i can imagine to balance it out, leave some space behind the minerals to give P a chance to protect their naturals against clifflurks with canons firing on the cliff. if done right, clifflurks will still be possible, but not "Uber" against protoss, on this map.

modified by Listoric
yenku
I kinda love this map now.
Droid
imba zvp...
modified by Droid
ShaManT
I see zerg written all over this map. PGT took it bcuz it looks cool but zvp and zvt is muy imba..
Listoric
http://www.pgtour.net/ladder.stats.php

TvP as well as TvP are balanced.

Only ZvP is kinda bad after Zerg Lurkers are great here, but it should only be a little tweak to fix that.
ScoutWBF
Lis we know TvP is balanced,that doesn't mean you have to tell us twice! XD
Listoric
gnihih

TvP as well as TvZ ^^

Sry :P
yenku
Its not even that imbalanced PvZ... I think it played fine the games I played..
lnept
ive watched some reps of gosus on sattarchasm

imbalance becomes very apparent unfortunately.

between the 4 easy bases, the lurker cliff drops, and the big center, its very difficult on protoss to attack. then with all this gas build up they bring there 20+ ultralisks(if toss survived that long) and eventually win
ScoutWBF
lol WTF?Porn adverts 8[
the dentist
simply reduce the amount of gas at each geyser to take the edge off of late game z>p
flothefreak
making space behind the naturalmins for cannons and reducing the gas behind the double-bridges to 2500 or 3000 should really balance pvz
LaO-Artanis
I'd say replace the cliff with highground walls, as most P's complain about lurk drops being so frequent there. You'd probably lose a lot of whining.
yenku
its not whining.
EffectHypnotize
starpary how do u feel about this being on PGT? it must be a cool feeling. lol/.
DG)SpoilR
No doubt this map deserve her pro-status.In my opinion under the best 10 ever;btw together with Space Lotus..

Regrettably those pro-people are not a good example for newbies.Instead of chosing such a map in tourneys,they playing crap like Blitz,Arkanoid.This map is a ideal platform to show everyone all the skills you posses
modified by DG)SpoilR
NastyMarine
Well it indeed is a great map execution wise.. but i've heard alot of negative comments about this map. One really bad thing, which you dont want to happen if ur a map maker, is to have your map stereotyped. This map has become a "2v2" map only. which is bad. but i love the map.
starparty
its kinda big for 1v1 and has less "wasted space" than LT so i dont know. Personally i dont mind since i am a 2v2 player.

I remember this map having zerg favourable statistics, but comparing it with modern maps i dont really understand why. Perhaps the cliffs are too strong in zvp with lurks on them. Mabye there should be turretspace behind the nat min lines?
trcc
The map could benefit from adding inverted ramps @ teal. If you take a look at the distance from main to nat for teal, compared to the 3 others, its hugeeeeeee

Even red is still a bit longer than blue and purple but not as much as teal :P But back in the days we didn't have to worry about that so :O
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48
Replays


--eS-X.starpARTy, hi_hf_gg_GO vs NaW-SamiRai, h4sU)SoDa(2on2, 1.13)
--LGI vs MyLifeForAiur(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI vs Me_G_G(1on1, 1.13)
--Me_G_G vs LGI(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI vs UKIO(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI vs Wilkinson10(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI vs UKIO(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI vs Nichy(1on1, 1.13)
-- vs (1on1, 1.13)
--Gh0s7[5thf] vs Cybr.wlad(1on1, 1.13)
--uG.ALF. vs KOG_lemon[5thF](1on1, 1.13)
--O_OMx vs Brazilian dude(1on1, 1.13)
--uG.ALF.vc vs iG.Chaipzor(1on1, 1.13)
--panschk[FP] vs Wilkinson10(1on1, 1.13)
-- vs trailerblazer(1on1, 1.13)
-- vs trailerblazer(1on1, 1.13)
--GAF vs (1on1, 1.13)
--GAF vs (1on1, 1.13)
--panschk[FP] vs Wilkinson10(1on1, 1.13)
--panschk_pro vs (1on1, 1.13)
--panschk_pro vs (1on1, 1.13)
--UKIO vs trailerblazer(1on1, 1.13)
--UKIO vs trailerblazer(1on1, 1.13)
--Destroyer{GOD} vs Bacdafacup(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI vs Me_G_G(1on1, 1.13)
--sC4s]InRi vs Xs-Nichy(1on1, 1.13)
--virus_protoss vs CiklqParket(1on1, 1.13)
--Bacdafacup vs Destroyer{GOD}(1on1, 1.13)
--Xs-Nichy vs sC4s]InRi(1on1, 1.13)
--CiklqParket vs virus_protoss(1on1, 1.13)
--virus_protoss vs Destroyer{GOD}(1on1, 1.13)
--sC4s]InRi vs Toss-Power(1on1, 1.13)
--sC4s]StInG vs virus_protoss(1on1, 1.13)
--Me_Gladiator vs NOKIA_(1on1, 1.13)
--TakeMyDance vs KickBoxerrr(1on1, 1.13)
--sC4s]StInG vs uNbeL1vaBLe(1on1, 1.13)
--sC4s]StInG vs UKIO(1on1, 1.13)
--sC4s]StInG vs K0RN_(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI vs Team NaN(other, 1.13)
--LGI vs KIngdom[VnL](1on1, 1.13)
--yenku vs psychotemplar(1on1, 1.13)
--yenku vs psychotemplar(1on1, 1.13)
--linkinpark4 vs DG)SpoilR(1on1, 1.14)
--DG)SpoilR vs The Mole2001(1on1, 1.14)
--keignasw vs BHolder(1on1, 1.14)
--GuN-Target-X17 vs tRYtoty PEThis(1on1, 1.16)
--hypeR.onFire vs DeatHLess(OD)(1on1, 1.16)
--We.Kingdom vs laugh.now(1on1, 1.16)

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