and how about only accepting submissions which feature at least 1 replay of each matchup or each voter has to play each map once (or anything like that)
Just try to get a conclusion out of all those posts and make motw more interesting somehow.
I know it`s difficult but just try something out.
Any Improvement would be fine i think.
modified by DeSade
2007, 03, 29 03:27
Eh... I would be all for an honored map every two weeks. It's a balance between MOTM and MOTW. But I just dont know what it would be called...
Honestly, I dont feel like a week is enough time to submit, test, vote, and post an honored map. The last two MOTWs I started... It seems like I'm rushing, but I'm actually just on time. It seems strange because of how off schedule we are, and for valid reasons. I think every two weeks would be better... But I really cant find a catchy name for it.
2007, 03, 29 03:49
yea. i think we should release something like "Admin's Choice" everyweek or so. It would be of a map that we feel has good 'off-the-bat' balance (though not perfect) and has a good orignal style. that would solve the problem of time between each MOTM.
I think in order to accept MOTM submissions we should require 5 replays more than 7+mins each rep or they dont count. any1 that agree? disagree?
2007, 03, 29 06:14
How about this:
motw as it is now (no voting)/ admins choose 2 (5 reps+, keep schedule)/ at end of month everybody votes for those 8 maps (maybe wait till mid of next month and more reps) -----> MOTM
and of course: MOTY = voting :D modified by DeSade modified by DeSade
2007, 03, 29 14:49
Are you drunk or something?What you suggest is not a contest anymore.Cause they can pick out whatever they want and in the end you can vote just under the maps they choosed before.It's like voting in the chinese congress.
Kudos to you!
2007, 03, 29 20:48
imo MOTF > MOTW > MOTM if you must pick from one. MOTM might be good if it was seperate from MOTW, and MOTF could replace MOTW, but honestly I doubt that increasing time allows for more submitting and more time for testing, when we/I delayed the MOTW calling, nothing happened, the competition just sat there. Too few people test maps, and those who do often don't upload replays. I'm not hosting another tournament, too few people show up. There is no unaminous day nor unanimous time any of us can show up for, so testing must be done individually/in small groups.
I think to reform MOTW we need to put more emphasis on how good a map must be. ie, in Nasty's last MOTW, Aquaridge, lnept and myself have mentioned possible balance issues. Since nothing has done to prove this wrong or to atleast indicate otherwise or to the contrary, with the system I am proposing now it could not have been made motw. I am not at all disputing its motw title. I think with this system, MOTF would be good. Map of the fuck, ie map of the fortnight (two weeks), would allow 1 week for submition/voting, and another week for more voting and testing.
No where in this new system I propose is the vote erased, that would be stupid. The admins' power in this is to remove maps which have already been motw (ie removing flo's maps that he adds), removing maps made that day (motw needs testing/discussion on the map), removing maps which are just bad (not naming any mappers here, but I see many mappers who submit every map they make here, even though every map has horrible things wrong with it and many comments suggesting that), and near the end of the time maps which have received 0 attention, many of which are decent maps. Arden has said, why remove them if no one wants them to be motw? I say, why leave them in the thread cluttering it and possibly deffering votes from a better decision, which could possibly break a tie when they aren't going to become motw?
The admin power here is filtering the list (now of course if a very popular map is removed, ie something retarded like Desert Flower, then the map could be readded. There are atleast three active admins here, instead of 1 admin doing all the filtering and deciding as it usually is, one admin can filter something out, then explain which map was removed and why, and the other admins can decide to either yay or nay that decision.
With the old MOTW, before the voting was done with panschk's poll thing, it was mostly just the admins doing the voting. While this is not imo the best solution alone, I think in the end the admins should vote for it. ie, look at the top winners of the democratic vote, then vote among those.
Now what happens when a week is slow, or submitting is minimal, and the top two maps are both shit maps? Democracy says pick a shitty map. The ologarchy of admin says pick a better map among the list even if it was not among the top voted for. I don't have a perfect solution for this, I think both options are bad. Feedback please :)
Now I've said in the past, MOTF results in fewer maps being chosen and put on the front page of gosugamers, spreading bwm less. I think this is something very important, and that it should be something to consider before making decisions on this. MOTW since it has become part of the sc community through nasty and gg.net, is not just a bwm thing. We make the calls, but it's not just for us, it's for them too. I see many people who eagerly await the next great map to play on from bwm. Bwm maps have been in wgt, pgt, the Avaton Tournament, and other large tournaments. We need not be hasty when deciding to reduce the maps which leave our site to the rest of the sc community.
Now also, what about adding more of the sc community to motw? Nasty and others here have power on gosugamers, and we might get influence on teamliquid as well, and also some of the smaller country unique sites. Setting up polls on these sites wouldn't be that hard, but should we accept the opinion of someone who is not a mapper, and hold it with the same weight as a mapper? Well, we hold the opinions of those who can make maps but can't play sc for shit high for some reason, and we hold high the opinions of those for a less rational reason who don't make maps nor play sc, so why not add the mapping hating community, who can play sc well?
I don't have a side on this, but I'm sure it would factor into the MOTF more than MOTW as we'd need more time to collect opinions through polls and stuff on other sc sites: 1 week for bwm voting/discussions, 1 week to open the discussion and voting to the rest of the sc community.
2007, 03, 29 21:18
I agree with the MOTF (Mao of the Fortnight) because it will definitely allow us to refine our search and in essence, decide on an assuredly worthy map. Sometimes a week just isn't enough =/. I really do not want to see MOTF become "Map of the Fuck" because personally, that sounds utterly moronic and will do nothing but reduce this site's reputation.
"Now what happens when a week is slow, or submitting is minimal, and the top two maps are both shit maps? Democracy says pick a shitty map. The ologarchy of admin says pick a better map among the list even if it was not among the top voted for. I don't have a perfect solution for this, I think both options are bad. Feedback please :)" - Nightmarjoo
I have thought of this... and I have no idea what to do about it. The simple solution is to extend the competition by a week, or simply skip that week. I would also like to hear some ideas on that.
2007, 03, 29 23:54
guys all the things you are stating have always been the norm.. we know all of this. cant we just discuss the stuff that isn't so obvious.
I say lets just move on from MOTW and go to MOTM. and how about instead of MOT"F" we just announce the competing maps in the most current MOTM competition. We can have the deadline to submit maps for the first week of the month. then the second week = vote time for nominees for MOTM. then the 3rd and 4th week = the play testing and final decision. We can hold tournies based off the maps competing during the month using this format. so this way we have a lot of repetition replay wise. it will be alot easier modified by NastyMarine
2007, 03, 30 00:35
I'm open to it... As long as we consistently test the maps in contention for each month (the top three or so).
2007, 03, 30 01:23
"I really do not want to see MOTF become "Map of the Fuck" because personally, that sounds utterly moronic and will do nothing but reduce this site's reputation" lol, it never was going to be map of the fuck, that's just a running joke of sorts.
"guys all the things you are stating have always been the norm.. we know all of this. cant we just discuss the stuff that isn't so obvious" Well, since you're focused on what's obvious, how about you look at the obvious fact that none of these "norm" issues have been settled. None of these issues have been settled, there is no reason to ignore them.
Now with your suggestion, I don't see anything in there I like.
1. MOTM results in very few maps being shown to the rest of the community. We only show them maps like once a month now anyway, but we show them 3-4 maps at a time atleast.
2. What you suggest is unrealistic. The Tournaments will not work, I already stated that. You cannot focus a map of the whatever competition on tournies, because not only is there nothing to indicate that people will show up, there is everything to indicate that people won't show up. When people do show up and we get to start a great 8 person tourny, half the players leave after the first round. The focus of the tourny then leaves from the maps to "who the fuck do I play now? I just got four fucking walkovers and I'm still in the losers' bracket? I haven't played 3 of the 4 maps here, what is this accomplishing?" You will say, 'well we need more people to show up' Thanks in advanced captain obvious, but it's not happening, not without extending this outside of bwm. Your Avaton Tournaments have been great, they obtain far more replays than our tournies do, even with such a low percent of the replays of their games coming here. I want to see more of that, although I understand the limitations on you and the wgtour admin staff and gg.net. It had been suggested that we improve our tournament site and then open up tournaments to the rest of the sc comminuty, well Panshck is busy or w/e, and he himself has stated a need for other people who can improve the site. Without much work done on that site, our tournaments here will accomplish nothing. Also, when issues are pointed out on maps which were seen in the few games played in tournies, or in personal testing, the mappers here don't go to fix them, or ignore them as not being issues (ie FLO WITH MIRAGE). I salute you in advanced, the captain obvious who will say 'well the mappers here need to change their resolve and open themselves up' It's not happening. Let's work with the realistic bwm and improve this MOTW thing, rather than be optimistic barbies in a barbie world.
Nasty, imo your system is entirely unrealistic, I also wish you would actually adress the issues myself and Arden have briefly discussed, rather than push them aside as being "already talked about". I don't care if we've talked about them before, we haven't resolved them!
Arden! "I have thought of this... and I have no idea what to do about it. The simple solution is to extend the competition by a week, or simply skip that week. I would also like to hear some ideas on that" Well, what I/we usually do is to delay them forever, which resulted in us being late on this MOTW thing, so I guess let's try skipping them. Of course, people will whine about dodging the competition, eg when people were considering killing MOTY because Galaxy Prime was winning the vote at the time, or when Desert Flower raped the vote for several weeks. Maybe we should vote in the competition to skip it or something? Something like this would be a collective admin decision, not something left to the vote spammer.
Back to Nasty! I've thought about MOTM, and I don't think it alone is a decent replacement for MOTW. Just because we sometimes delay the competition for a whole month doesn't mean extending the deadline will correct anything, and in fact, when extending competition deadlines in the past, no new support came, no good discussions came, no newly submitted maps, no testing, and whatnot. Your plan hopes that the bwm mapper will himself change to correct this, but it's not happening, Mr. Optimistic.
2007, 03, 30 21:31
I do not like the idea of MOTF. But i do agree with how you want MOTWs are chosen. BUT we've always agreed that is how it should be even though we have never went thru with it. and i dont appreciate you flaming me for my idea.
I did mention that we'd still post other maps if we went to MOTM. Whats wrong with this? nothing at all. Just because those maps wont have a title of MOT "M or W", doesnt mean that they are nothing. we obviously can sort out good maps from bad ones and the runners up will gain attention too. Now i dont see what the problem with that at all. And to be honest I dont know even if we go MOTM that we'll get great testing from the members of the site, but i do know that we'll be able to think it over alot better without worrying about next week's motw that should have started a week earlier.
I dont understand why you point out that not all mappers change there maps... b.c we'll encounter that anyway no matter what system we implement so whats the point of bringing that up.
Heres what I CAN do if we go MOTM. I could use the maps that are in the competition and use it for the featured maps in the avaton tournamnets. That way I can get at least 2 tournies on the maps in contention. We can vote like i stated in my other comment earlier that month for the maps to be used in the tournies and then we just watch the reps flow in. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS IDEA.
Your approach is basically extending the deadline too i dont see what your talking about. And using MOTM will make our site look more professional so we DONT POST ONE MAP OF THE WEEEEEEK ONCE A MONTH. its idiotic and unprofessional and so thats why i propose that we use something that will at least make us look more professional.
2007, 03, 30 22:43
Well... Upon further consideration, I've come to accept the MOTM idea - but on one condition. (You have already mentioned something similar) - If we do in fact push our competition to a monthly event, then I would like to see a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place system. Nightmarjoo, you seem to have a problem with the decrease in public appearance if we move to MOTM, and I agree. If we publicize 3 maps per month, than we will still be advertising a respectable number of maps over a time. Of course, problems are likely to occur... ie. no map is worthy of a third place rank, therefore cutting of a third place position for that month, but I think a month is ample time to select three worthy maps.
This MOTM, while still showing the same number of maps, will also build anticipation. I think the MOTWs we currently have in place are too predictable (not that the maps aren't of quality, but there is usually only 1 MOTW quality map per week, so that eliminates most of the competition). I think we would do better with a monthly system, instead of just spaming maps for the sake of it. modified by Arden(WoF)
2007, 03, 31 00:17
hmm ok, let's try Arden's idea. If that's settled, then let MOTW 8 be the last, unless we so desire to go back to MOTW =/
I think your points address what I was thinking well. This removes the issue of having a bad week, assuming we can find atleast 1 map which is worthy, and that's not gonna be a problem with bwm's current activity. If we can post only two maps then that's fine I spose, better than having 1 motw go on for the month as nasty said and not producing results.
If we choose three maps per month, and nasty has 2 Avaton's per week, we can use the top two maps for the first one, and the third map as well as a previous MOTW/MOTM winner.
Nasty, if you don't understand what I said in my ramble, then I don't think you ever will, so I'm not reiterating it again. I wasn't flaming you, I was flaming what I believed your idea to be, and what's wrong with telling someone you think their idea is bad, and explaining why?
"Your approach is basically extending the deadline too i dont see what your talking about. And using MOTM will make our site look more professional so we DONT POST ONE MAP OF THE WEEEEEEK ONCE A MONTH. its idiotic and unprofessional and so thats why i propose that we use something that will at least make us look more professional" In the past, if I had extended the deadline with the optmistic hope that something would change in the meantime, I had no better options, no better feedback, at the time. It's not like you ever tried to give better ideas, you always just said "zomg pick that one even though it's shit". Posting one MOTW per month is better than posting 4 maps per month, if those maps are garbage. 1 quality map is better than 4 garbage maps, your old idea would have made the site look much less proffessional, Mr. Professional.
Now, if we plan on Nasty having 2 Avatons (of course it is understandable that Nasty would not always if ever be able to get 2 done), it seems we would have to get the voting done in the first week/two weeks, to allow for time for an Avaton in each of the later two weeks in the month. This leaves little time for watching replays, discussing stuff and whatnot. So we'd only have time for one Avaton per month, but then the 3rd place runner up wouldn't fit in the tourny, unless Nasty included 3 bwm maps in addition to the default map pack.
Obviously this isn't perfect, more discussing would help.