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Did I call you a newb? I am just stating that IF this replay shows you skill to some extent, then you can't seriously consider yourself "decent". That doesn't make you a newb either.

Also, how often have I been calling you a newb that you are already tired of it?

I have not been playing 1n1 for months, so IF you beat me, what will that show? But if you happen to catch me on Europe, I might still face you.
But you really shouldn't feel like your pride was attacked Oo
2007, 09, 22 00:11
lol you're saying I'm not decent from a game I wasn't played serious on 6 months ago for no reason =/
2007, 09, 22 00:55
OK, I once received an advice, if you can't figure it out take it to the limit and look at it from that vantage point. Let's do that:


So suppose, just suppose, that some mapper enters this map into the contest that is universally accepted by all admins as awful, glaring race and positional imbalances, uneven resources, different size mains etc, etc, your nightmare map, but then due to a coincidence of not enough old time mappers and a noob invasion it gets the most votes because it has the sexiest picture and what not. The mapper then refuses to make any changes and demands a MOTM award due to most votes. Will we award it?

I don't know, but clearly there is some merit to nightmarjoo's and flo's arguments from this point of view.



Suppose admins are too busy or reluctant to post winners, mappers are too busy to make requested changes, the maps are not the best, competitions are open ended for people to upload more maps and things just drag on and on forever. Mappers work hard, they upload the maps with the thrill to compete for MOTM or other competitions, they vote and they keep loggin on and on to this website week after week and nothing happens. Their votes are ignored and they are told that their maps are just "not good enough" even if they got the most votes. They are required to go through a seemingly endless cyle of editing and testing. Mapping becomes no fun and mappers then just leave this place and never come back.

Surely you will agree under this scenario that my argument has some merit too.

Clearly these two extremes are not acceptable. We cannot be so loose we accept anything and we cannot just make the process of mapmaking less appealing than going to the dentist. Remember that this website will always need new mappers. So let's be civilized stop the name calling and accept that we have to work something in-between.

I propose:

1-Let's agree on some basic rules regarding voting to be posted in the article section for all to read. Let's come out clean and be honest about what people can expect when voting here (if you all agree I will star a "proposed voting rules" thread to discuss this).

We could check other mapmaking websites for guidance (does mapdori have contests?). What do THEY do?

2-Let's concentrate on getting out the winners of some of the competitions. MOTM-7 seems almost ready and Nightmarjoo is close to finishing his. Perhaps we can also close some of the open ended ones like "reverse your map or the pimping ones" and so forth.

3-Let's respect each other and accept that we have different criteria as to what constitutes a good map.

modified by Lancet
2007, 09, 22 01:16
What you just posted is absolutely fine, I disagree on only one thing, which I have stated above, in my large mass of texts.

I don't think there should be rules on voting, but rather, rules on what kind of maps can be submitted to the competition. Now, it is unfair, to those who make great but very experimental maps to never win a motm because it's too experimental. It's not fair for those who make an amazing micro style map to never win because it doesn't allow good gameplay past 8 minutes :) That doesn't stop it from being a great map. It's unfair for every non-standard map to never be a motm or motw or w/e just because it's not the norm, a great map is a great map. But, are we willing to post a map people are less inclined to play than usual? This is very relevant as the top voted maps in motm9 so far are island maps. Should we make multiple monthly awards? Surely more than just one or two great maps are made in a month. I however propose nothing here, since I personally have no problem with making an island map motm, and will play a good map regardless of its standardity (if others will also play it^^).

What I also mean is what I said I would do earlier, starting with motm10. I said something about maps which are user beta will be removed immediately, because they most likely need more work before they can become motm. But however, people aren't as likely to comment a map which isn't on the competition list. Even myself sometimes will miss a map, and through coincidence or laziness ommit to post on a map, and that map will get into the competition, and I won't take it seriously, and then it gets 70 votes and I'm like zomg and post how shitty it is after it already got 70 votes. I see a lot more comments about maps in the competitions than I do on the maps themselves, so allowing all maps on the list and filtering a little bit later does have its benefits.
But I think certainly it also is advantageous to not allow maps which were just posted to be on the list, in case they are really pretty and get lots of votes without testing. I would put a replay requirement on the list, but then we would have literally 0 maps to vote on. I'd say only maps made the month before but that might cut out some great maps. I could filter maps less than a week old, but then those maps might not recieve comments in time to be allowed on the list. I wouldn't of course be opposed to arbitrary removal of maps by my choice, but I know you guys wouldn't like that ;)
2007, 09, 22 01:44
so you can beat me, that makes u god? Or what? that makes my opinion irrelevant? good one. I hang around lots of great players and when i talk with them about strategy or the game in general, i dont hear them say: "i beat you, therefore you cannot theory craft... you cant balance a map now!... your maps are not good b/c I beat you!!!!!!" I mean come on now seriously. If you think that makes a difference then u really have the wrong idea about constructing maps.

and so i guess if i dont compensate for overlord placement, my map is bad LOL

And i really dont care what you think about my maps whether or not i put concept before gameplay or w.e. I construct maps that will play solid and doesnt have anything to do with this whole Thread. I'm pretty sure this thread has nothing to do with my maps LOL So please carry on with how much my maps come out like crap. Oh yes i did mention that you couldnt balance a map. BUT you took it a bit personal and read too much into it. if you would think about it, its meant to referr to the community as a whole. but from this point, yes, i am directing my arguement at you since you want to critique where my faults lie as a mapper.

As for lancet's last comment. I agree totally. But we've been thru our voting system countless times and either way ppl are going to have a problem with it. PPL will scream "OMG the admin picked his friends map! or a map by a well known mapper!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" or as it is now, " ZOMG ppl are picking SHIT ASS MAPS" as joel would put it.

so we really could discuss it forever im afraid. if anything we'd have to discuss it in private so ppl dont go crazy.

ill leave it at that.
2007, 09, 22 01:58
And for the record:

I DONT give a SHIT about BALANCE. I'll FIX IMBA features after GREAT PLAYERS TEST IT.
2007, 09, 22 02:00
you guys are all homos I can beat you all and I havent played in 3 months pwned ez.

Lancet getting admin privileges or bossing people around is just LMAO. since the first day he joined this website he seemed like a prick.

I agree with flo and nightmar, the maps voted as MOTW arent good enough to be posted yet.

2007, 09, 22 02:14
lol why is the first part not under "serious" because I know you're serious about that ;)

You're just being a fag now Nasty, the only part of that I'll respond to is the last part, about great players testing. You saw the zerg player play on Battle Grounds, and he played really stupidly and got raped. Those who played Shine and Calypso, Na)Girl and uh Whistler, played kind of stupidly too. I mean, obviously no one can play their best on a map they hardly know, but my point is that the best can't necessarily show more than a noob can on a map.
2007, 09, 22 03:47
Well, clearly the more restrictions you put on mapping the less people will contribute maps. Also bear in mind that some people will begin making lousy maps and then progress to making better maps. If you thwart them from the begining they will not stay. If you want to encourage participation you can't set sky high standards. But again, you can't just allow wverything.

So....I have a proposal:

One possibility is to create a two tier system. One set of maps will be maps for which everyone votes for. This will be the "popular vote". This will encourage newbie participation as total number of votes will be the deciding factor. You can call this the "popular map category"(admins will also vote here though).

The next and say more "important" set of maps will be those that only admins vote for (the official map category). These maps would be the "admin-certified maps", those formally presented to the "world" as the final product of this web-site.

What say you all?
2007, 09, 22 04:08
Sounds complicated, like a lot of work for panschk to set up :( Unless we did multiple competitions, but that would get messy fast, and people would still vote in the admin only thing lol. Not to mention, we only have 2-6 active admins, the number is quite dynamic, but always too small for decent results imo.
2007, 09, 22 04:12
OK then how about this?

The "popular vote" competitions we can set up as admin-sponsored competitions (like yours) with the caveat that we will respect the popular vote and try to adhere to a strict timetable (within reason). This way we give something to "the masses".

The MOTM competitions can then remain the current system where we may not post a map until it is edited or replayed enough or we may scrap the competition altogether if the maps are not good enough.
modified by Lancet
2007, 09, 22 04:25
wait wait wait
this is becoming too much for me to read now, but nightmarjoo, since when is silver flush intended to be posted INSTEAD of iron flush? :o
i agree we're trapped here, as the winner (iron flush) needs editing and was said to be edited but isnt now. but we cant just make another map the winner^^
motm8 is fine, no idea why it isnt posted.

i didnt flame lancet for being a newb, though. i just flamed him because he is even more newbie than me BUT thinks he'd know all about bw, balance, strategy and mapmaking (just see his idea with that drop 8 of your workers with crystals to the enemy mineralline, lol...) but at the same time is so low on those that he neither know maynard-slide, or how workers move and act when sliding, AND you see he never plays broodwar BECAUSE HE DID NOT KNOW THAT UNITS DONT ATTACK NEUTRAL BUILDINGS/UNITS/MINES ACTIVELY.

really, i am no enemy to newbies, i am just saying lancet has no clue at all to be a good map judger.
modified by flothefreak
2007, 09, 22 11:54
It was my understanding that the authors of Iron Flush had agreed to the editing and Silver Flush was going to take its place. Did I miss something?

As to my "little" knowledge of SC at least what I know I tell others instead of keeping them ignorant so I can rant about how ignorant they are. As to Crystal Valley (which is a good map), I still think using Crystals is a good and innovative idea and more competent players than me could probably find even better ways to use them if they just stopped bitching about what a stupid idea it is. As to the mines, hey I accepted it was a stupid idea (you didn't have to tell me) and I deleted the map (although I was told not to). Occasional stupid ideas are the price you pay for innovation, and that sir (innovation) is what I am really good at.
2007, 09, 22 15:10

so basically this whole debate can be solved if i just make final touches on silver flush because then we can post both missing motms?
2007, 09, 22 16:24
As long as we agree on a system to prevent this from happening again.
2007, 09, 22 16:27
Flo, I think so :)
Um I guess we'll ask Crackling if he has a problem with Silver Flush replacing Iron Flush in the competition, and instead of his (2)Mana, but I doubt he will. Personally, I think Silver Flush is better than Mana, but depends on how Silver Flush comes out after the final touches, and what Crackling's opinion is. I haven't seen Crackling in a while, anyone have his aim, msn, email, or bnet name?
2007, 09, 22 19:46
hello :)
2007, 09, 22 21:01
sure i'm fine with it :D

but remove xelnaga entrance >.>

PS: infact i wasnt posting because i'm to lazzy to read all this shit >.>
modified by Crackling
2007, 09, 22 21:29
the backdoor hurts terran most i think, which does not hurt the map ;) so i want to keep it actually. however, i will do the edit on monday.
2007, 09, 22 23:29
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