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I think anyone that gets angry at lancet for this thread is an asshole. He just wants more activity in the site, and this is no bad thing. As admins, we should be more active than anyone and posting motms ON TIME. So i dont see why anyone is being hostile. Maybe if we posting shit on time for a change, you wouldnt see a thread like this. so grow up cunts XO
2007, 09, 21 02:17
lol ok, you can be the one responsible for posting a shit map then, have it on your conscience.

Maybe if people had a selection of good maps to vote on it wouldn't matter which map won, because it would be good enough to post. If the mappers aren't making good maps, there's nothing us admins can do lol.
2007, 09, 21 03:42
joel ur a piece of shit. the maps are fine. we dont need perfect balance. only about 15% of these maps will ever get played in tournaments or good players. At the point where a map gets picked to be used somewhere else it then can be edited for balance. But our ultimate goal should be to select/vote on maps that present a new, fun, and innovative feature/gameplay for players to experience. We don't have perfect theory crafting OR gaming skills to make a balanced map anyway - even if we wanted to we really couldnt. So worrying about perfect balance should only be worried about once we do get a chance to add it to a mappack etc.

You really arent someone to judge on balance when u urself cant even create a balanced map by yourself. none of really can by ourselves. so why focus on something that we cant achieve? Lets strive to add interesting and new maps to the community's selection. then let us worry about balance. Now ofc i dont mean to say: "ok lets select any good looking map..." I'm saying lets just sort out the good, the bad, and the ugly. and then figure out balance after.

if ur looking for more then ur in the wrong place.
2007, 09, 21 05:09
nah, i also think we need to keep a certain quality in MOTMs, more than ever.
2007, 09, 21 16:30
"KEEP a certain quality"?

We had like 1, and then we were never able to just do the damn thing. That's like saying: The eastern conference is weak this year, let's just skip eastern conference playoffs and give the spurs the trophy right away.

The maps got most vote, and maybe they are not perfect enough for flothefreak and nightmarjoo, who seem to be on another planet with their map-judging ability, but they represent what a majority of people here like, including me btw.

Imo bad motm > no motm
Well, I'd like to see a newspost on them ;)
2007, 09, 21 18:15
I kinda share panschk's opinion...
2007, 09, 21 18:21
i see motm as follow-up of motw. i dont claim myself being on another plane. i just oppose to clearly bad maps. i have no problem with the turn-outs of the motms actually, i dont know why this seems to be the topic. maybe because lancet thinks in his stupid mind that we wouldnt post motm out of defiance because we desperately dont want to have those maps winning? just fuck you if you think so, panschk and spine.

post the maps yourself then. the point is none did it, and the only one doing stuff like that recently just didnt felt like because he thought the map could use some editing (which the author agreed on -.-) so he kept being lazy and waited for 2-3 weeks without posting the news. too bad the author just doesnt do the changes, so we're in a state of paralyzing here. i also dont know why you drag me into the bad corner here, i almost never posted MOTW/MOTMs and never "prevented" any of the maps to get the title. the only thing i did was telling lancet what a fucking retard he is and who he thinks who he is, acting like he'd be the only guy with the knowledge of how to run this site. so fuck you if you want to piss me off, what you successfully did now.

fuck it, this kind of thread and its turnouts are the fucking reason i dont ever do things like posting newsposts or doing more for this site.
2007, 09, 21 20:25
I think alot of the mappers/members here have gotten spoiled with what some of us were able to produce in the community. And that is maps in tournaments/leagues/ladders. Your forgetting how hard it was to even get any of the stuff we have achieved over the passed year. I know it myself because I myself have pushed so hard to achieve it.

Not to mention some maps that were used weren't even MOTWs. Some maps that we feel were balanced were proven wrong and I dont care what anyone says.

Why do u think pro mappers fail at their maps and edit theirs for the league? Cuz they cant do it on their own and niether can we. And we definently dont have the right gamers to achieve wat they can. So lets do what we can and not expect perfection.

Alot of the members here forget why we make motms/motws.

Panschk is right and I agree.
2007, 09, 21 21:31
If anyone wants to hear my opinion:
1. Let him be Admin, what's wrong with another
helping hand (he seems dedicated to contribute)
2. Just post MOTM no matter what. It's people's
choice and if it proves bad, people should
vote wiser next time.
3. Most members of bwmn are horrible at playing
(from the point of view of an ICCup C- account)
4. This page contributes a lot to the mapping
scene (there have been a number of recent
adaptations in korean promaps namely gasissue
and spells) so it deserves to have an
appealing layout.
5. maybe post each MOTM on mapdori to
promote it and add to the contest.

2007, 09, 21 21:38
zomg flo don't flame panshck :( Also, spines is always nice, don't be mean to him :(

Nasty, I don't understand this agression from you. When I analyze your maps you always take it fucking personally, it's not my fault if you can't make a decent map. Thanks for the flame "joel ur a piece of shit. the maps are fine. we dont need perfect balance" When have I ever asked for perfect balance? I don't even ask for perfect positional balance (but as close to perfect positional balance as possible is easy to get and certainly helps imo).
If a map has noticeable flaws, then it should be edited, lol. If all the flaws found in a map are corrected, and no new ones are found, the map is good to go. Does that mean it has perfect racial balance? Probably not. Why would I post a map as motm when its author won't edit it a bit? If it needs more than just a little editing, it doesn't deserve to win.
Nasty why do you always make everything personal?

Reason why Iron Flush was not posted motm: It sucked. I looked at the jpg and found many issues, I clearly and consicely as I can analyzed it for others to see why I didn't like the map. I had played the map prior to this analysis. Flothefreak also played and looked at the map and found issues. Since Testbug was busy and Cracking wasn't concerned with his own map, the competition sat, because I was awaiting a major edit, and wasn't motivated enough to do it myself. Thankfully, flothefreak created Silver Flush. Why have I not posted it as motm yet? I know that Flothefreak plans on doing some final edits. We both have played the map and takled about it; as soon as flo gets both the time and motivation to finish Silver Flush, I am confident we'll have a final version which I'd be willing to post as motm.

Why Endless Fields has not been posted as motm: Testbug hasn't had the time to edit the map, and I know he plans on editing it, so I will patiently wait for him. Don't rush perfection guys, you know what testbug is capable of.

Nastymarine, part of the motm was originally intended to be the Avaton Tournament, which through lack of time I assume you have not been able to keep up, and I know probably gives you a hard time with Avaton anyway. Avaton obtained replays which showed decent gameplay on virtually every map which was in Avaton, they proved the maps to be motm worthy. Without your Avaton, the motm lacks its principle form of testing. If you can find time to continue this, that would be great; if not, we certainly understand how time consuming and how much hard work has to go into that and won't fret.

"You really arent someone to judge on balance when u urself cant even create a balanced map by yourself. none of really can by ourselves" Thanks for making it personal again. You act like you can make balanced maps. You don't, because, as you said, no one can on their own. You always act like your maps are godly and nothing is wrong with them, and flame me when I point out issues lol. As for my maps, I have never declared my maps to be good, I always try and point out issues in my own maps. Angband 3600 ft. 1.2 was one of my few maps I actually liked at all, and I'm sure it doesn't have perfect balance or the easiest gameplay in the world, lol.

Panshck, what me and flo do is look at a jpg, form hypothesies, and then play the map and test them, to form a decent analysis of the map. Most others here just don't do that, lol. I am a "decent" player, and flo is a decent mapper. If you guys won't believe what we come up with (and we don't agree fully) without seeing for your selves whether we are right or wrong, then you obviously won't trust what anyone says about the maps here, in which case this site is no longer a place to come for help in making maps.
There are three important aspects to mapping. Firstly, a mapper has to make a map and upload it, and give us here an idea of what he was thinking when he made the map. Secondly, other mappers here need to give feedback to the author about the map. Pointing out what is good, and what could use some work, and why. This includes play-testing. You can open the map up and play a comp, you do learn stuff about the map from that: you learn sizes, distances, shape, pathing, etc. By playing humans, you learn timing, and what strategies do and don't work on the map. Then, after having recieved feedback and explained his own side, played the map, and seen replays of others, the author decides what he feels is best to alter in the map. The mapping process ends here if he's like me, and acknowledges what needs be done, but loses mapping motivation and doesn't make an edit. If the author does in fact make proper edits, the cycle continues. New discussion, new replays, new edits, possibly. This happens as many times is necessary until a final version is prepared which should be as good as the map can get.
How many maps do you see which follow this cycle even once? If mappers don't put effort into their maps subsequent to uploading them, we don't get quality maps to vote on. I realized through this discussion that the motm problem isn't the voters' at all. The problem resides in the lazy mappers. Am I a lazy mapper? Fuck yes. My mapping motivation rarely lasts long enough to even finish a map, let alone edit a map I finally uploaded to bwm. But also, I never push my maps for motm (excluding Angband 3600 ft. 1.2, but even that needs a small edit). Nastymarine is a lazy mapper, he makes a map just for the look like he's some kind of korean mapper. Nasty doesn't care about gameplay, let alone balance. I wonder if Nasty ever opens his own maps up in sc. He flames me just for suggesting real, valid problems in the map. When Nastymarine is your hero mapper, you know something's wrong =/ Nick, you're a great guy, but a lazy mapper :(

"I'm saying lets just sort out the good, the bad, and the ugly. and then figure out balance after" lol, let's not. How about, let's get good maps, and then upload them to the competition, not upload maps with questionable gameplay and balance and then make them motm and then realize they suck.
2007, 09, 21 22:26
Desade, 1. I am opposed to Lancet being admin if posting Iron Flush as motm with proof of it being a bad map exists is the first thing he's gonna do. His mapping ideas are always interesting, but nothing suggests he's a competent mapper, just a post-modern artist of sorts with mapping concepts.

2. Not the voters' fault, we need more motivated mappers.

3. True, but not all of us are bad at sc, this coming from a player who got C- last season with little iccup activity, and I was 149 points from C. DeA was easily atleast B-, if not B iccup last season. lnept I don't think is active, but I've never beaten him :( Scout is decent also, and so is Psychotemplar. I haven't played Nasty in forever so I dunno his current skill level, but I don't think he's active anyway.

4. I like its simple layout :) Most korean sites confuse the hell out of me (and more than just because it's all in korean lol).

5. Sure, why not? :)
2007, 09, 21 22:32
Holy Shit!!! Calm down men! Nobody wants to read all that stuff here. You're making an big fight of the community, just cuz lancet made an forum thread about MOTM winners?!!?! You shouldn't waste your time with writing this shit and flame each other. Calm down, you should wait till flo or joel post the newspost or write it yourself. Nasty, panschk your all admins, you all have the right to write the post. Don't waste your time and get a life pls, thx!!!
2007, 09, 21 22:36
lol nooooo please read what I said, it took a while to type it all out. I tried indendting often to make it easier to read^^
2007, 09, 21 22:38
I've read all posts :) Don't worry!^^
2007, 09, 21 22:40
2007, 09, 21 22:44
You obviously dont know me. And how can u say that i dont even make maps for the gameplay? i always tell u thats how i judge maps. I dont look for balance as it isnt something any of us can achieve. I look for gameplay features to implement into my maps. Something you overlook about me.

And i will flame you when you want to put ppl down for having an opinion about motms and why they havent been posted. Shame on u man.

And your looking to argue with me. When u wanna call out ppl for not having time or not wanting to edit THEIR OWN MAPS, u end up flaming them. And its really not right. I edit things I come to realize just wont work or what I feel needs tweaking. I dont play much at all anymore and its hard enough to find ppl to play usermade maps so i dont know what your trying to get at.

AND i dont act like im god here. I upload my maps and i await comments and feedback. Thats it. If you have a problem with how my maps look then your retarded. I'm sorry if i have an eye for detail. how many korean mappers do u see make beautiful looking designs and still be able to present standard or solid layout. NOT Many. And I pride myself on that. I think i do a good job when i submit a map. Im not sure what your problem is with that. And again, rethink what your saying, b.c your missing the point of what i explained about my outlook on balancing maps. I create all my maps with small features that change gameplay and make it look natural and fun. I'm not a design only/korean mapper. and you kno that.

aggression? maybe i dont like how you and flo flame lancet for having fun or wanting to see this site's admins active. so maybe figure out next time how to post a motm more often (that goes for all us admins not just you and flo) and then maybe we wont see this type of thread again.

I personalize my arguements so ppl can look at it thru another persons perspective and i dont intentionally want to make any of my points hurtfull. But if u and flo or anyone insist on flaming someone for wanting an active 'administration' on this site, then you should get it back. treat ppl the way you want to be treated.
modified by NastyMarine
2007, 09, 21 22:45
The "on another planet" thing probably relates more to you two flaming Lancet for being a "newb", and so new to bwmn. Also you were really overreacting at the beginning of this thread already.

That 2n2 on Archmage you uploaded lately, Nightmarjoo, is really poor. I posted about it in the mapthread. Even if this is a rather bad game of yours, you can't go and call yourself "decent". 1k @ 6:30 just is NOT "decent".

Sooo... please respect Lancet as a person who CAN judge maps. And if you really are just waiting for some obviously necessary edits - that don'`t change the map itself - on the winning maps of the competitions then I guess Lancet will accpet that as well. He has to.
2007, 09, 21 23:00
good call spines.
2007, 09, 21 23:02
I do treat people the way I want to be treated. I don't flame, I propose discussion with what I think, and supporting details to as the why. But then people just flame me and tell me I'm wrong with no proof or supporting details.

As for the gameplay stuff, when I look at your maps, I don't need to look for most issues, because you're a decent mapper. I go straight into gameplay. For example, I looked at Morris Plains, and wanted to know where I put my ovys in zvt, and how am I going to secure a 3rd gas in zvt. Flo told me to somehow play around that, which is rediculous. You didn't say anything, but you didn't address it at all, and imo it really hurts the map. I questioned how the expo layout might hurt balance, and you pretty much ignored it. Especially on Thesis is what made me say what I did above: I questioned the balance and gameplay and you flamed me instead of adressing what I said =/
Pretty much throughout all of your maps, I make a comment and you ignore it. The only times you actually address anything I said is if someone else said it, making it simply a coincidence that you considered something I said. I don't know why you have a personal vendetta against me, all I know is you think I'm an sc idiot, when I have a winning record vs you in pvt, my worst race vs your best, and you think I'm the sc idiot =/
We have pretty much always had differing ideas on maps, I like maps with both good gameplay and balance, and you like maps with new forms of gameplay and don't care much about balance unless it's really obtruse. But in the last few months you make a slight disagreement a personal fight when it should be nothing more than differing mapping ideals.

I don't see how wanted mappers to edit their maps so I can post them as motm. I always thought that it was every bwm mapper's dream to get their best map as motw or motm, and they would work hard to get a map with a decent concept perfect to win that achievement. If they won't put effort into making their map a final product, more than a beta, then they don't deserve to win.

I really don't want to fight you, Nick, lol. Before you got really busy with work and school, when you really active on the site, you and me pretty much always got along, despite our differences. I dunno why it's a personal fight now, because I don't want it to be.

When I say your maps are korean, I don't mean they have good design. You're a decent mapper and obviously can make your maps look good. That doesn't mean your decoration is great every time anyway though, but that's a personal style thing and irrelevant. When I say your maps are korean style maps, I refer to how korean mappers make a map for a concept and not for gameplay. By placing balance at a much lower level than concept, and having gameplay below concept, you hurt your maps imo. Look at Lexington, a decent concept, with alright execution, except that you ignored gameplay, and the map kinda sucks to play on, even though it looks great in the picture at a first glance. I want to see NastyMarine who makes the Lexington first glance the Lexington second glance, and a tertiary glance, etc. I say your maps are korean style (and not all of them) because they have great aspects, and then other not so great aspects :(
I think you act like you're a mapping god when you ignore gameplay issues in your maps. I don't see the point in making a map with an amazing concept and great execution if it's going to have gameplay flaws. My own maps I think mostly aren't great because 1. I have no motivation and little time, and 2. Because I make maps specifically for gameplay without considering concept much. So my maps result as playable but boring maps. When I've played with concepts, I get negative feedback =/

Nick, can we seriously stop fighting? I didn't even bring you into this argument, you brought yourself in and started this. It's a personal problem, but I can't say nothing when you flame me cuz I consider you my friend. Why does a disagreement have to be a flame =/
2007, 09, 21 23:10
Spines, that replay is not recent, it's more than HALF A YEAR OLD. Also, it was a fun, not serious or competitive game. That obviously wasn't my best even at the time, and I'm far better than my best then now. I'm tired of you calling me a noob when I've said nothing to you. 1v1?
2007, 09, 21 23:12
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