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Last update for (2)Land of Immortals : 2016, 10, 21 18:31
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
2945 (2)Land of Immortals 128*128DapixX / Grief_Stricken3.9finalground

The map has been rated 58 times and got a total of 224 points
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Grief_Stricken
previously a 4 player map by DapixX, a mapper once active on bwmn.he resign to be active furthermore because of nightmarjoo;long story.he's unusual style has fascinating me as i was new here;he didn't try to imitate promaps like the most here.if i have to describe his style i would say it was a mix of unusual design and a uncomplicated but precise execution.

i tried to preserve in this map his handiwork and style.i converted the original 4 player into a 2pl. map only for more diversity and dynamic in the game.deco and resource arrangement have been adapted.special thx to DG)SpoilR who make this deal possible and also to DapixX who allow me to work on his map.
MorroW
i think u should push back the nat alittle so distance is alittle bit longer (maybe too easy to turtle over to enemy)

i like the deco, looks cool^^
ptar
"DapixX, a mapper once active on bwmn.he resign to be active furthermore because of nightmarjoo;long story"

Wow, Nightmarjoo pissed off alot of mapper.
Nightmarjoo
I dunno why dapixx left, but he didn't like me because I commented his map with my opinion/theory craft. So, just like LGI, instead of arguing his side, he left.
spinesheath
Which parts of the basilica are "basilica" and which are "high basilica"? Was it really necessary to create that height-level-confusion instead of just walling those top left and right expansions with some posts of basilica? You'd lose the top-of-ramp advantage of course, but I think that won't hurt that much since you will take that expo as your third or even fourth one...
modified by spinesheath
LML
you should add more minerals for main/nat, imo.
8 in main and 6 at nat favours Z over P, since Z can get his 3rd expansion rather easy and defend it pretty easy, too.
make it 9 and 7 or something similiar.
Lancet
Yeah, I didn't leave, I stayed and argued, now my lifespan has been reduced by 5 years or so.

: ^ (

The map is flashy. Hey the area behind the nats is full of tank holes. I think third gas is too close and easy to protect. I would place the third gas were the minonly is pushing it a little towards the sides of the map so that pathing will not be messed up.
Grief_Stricken
for those who believe the 3 gas comes close to the nat let's say - maybe you will be surprised but the nat it's not so easy to defend as you believe.and you will be happy of this easy defendable expo.
@lml - i know maps that work with 7 min. in the main and 6 on the nat;i don't see how this helps z more than p & t
@lancet - the holes that you meant are not a threat for the nat.cause near to the nat they are blocked by doodads.and wherever you can drop tanks the distance wouldn't allow you to hurt the nat
@nightmarjoo - you have not a spark of decency,cause otherwise you would be quiet - at least when you knew you are guilty.your taste of debate is not the same as mine;arguing with a gun on your head is not arguing;pushing decisions is not arguing.your grasp of aguing is something like flaming.you can fool newer people around with your stories,but dont surmise you can fool me.i was here when dapixx & lgi goes and i know what's happen in both cases
Lancet
Nightmarjoo doesn't argue with a gun on his head, it's more like a bazooka.

With regards to the tank holes, they are real and you can reach the nat big time, try it yourself. Also, I am curious, why do you think this particular nat is not so easy to defend?
Grief_Stricken
you can drop only behind the min.line if you wanna hurt the nat.but that's not so worse.worse is only when the tank is out of range,so that he can hurt you and you aren't able to respond.why is this nat hard to defend?well,if you have played the map you wouldn't ask.actually because the position of main building(nexus/cc/hatch) and the few space available.you cannot build many cannons sunks nor put many tanks inside.because of the small room;also you will jam the way outside for the units that comes from the main.
Testbug
grief_stricken you should rea spinesheath's comment again. i'm sure that was the only serious post in this thread.
Rye
Pretty kickass looking map you've got there.
spinesheath
Gosh.

Why has hunters always been a toss map, despite the gigantic choke? 10 Minerals @ main. BGH 20. How come that protoss totally owns anyone on fastest? 50 mins @ main.
The more minerals, the better for terran and especially protoss. Why? Zerg can't keep up with the number of harvesters of a terran or protoss unless the zerg plays drone only.

Photobucket

How is that not a good defense? Seriously, the only thing you have to fear in early game and the first parts of middle game will be mutas. As protoss, put up some blocking buildings to create a choke further in the front (against z. I hope you don't try to defend anywhere but in the middle of the map against a terran). You can easily place 3-4 cannons. It will get a little cramped, but against a zerg that is exactly what you would want...
Zerg will have the biggest problem with the small nat, because sometimes you'll want more than 4 sunks.
Sure, most people would appreciate a larger nat, but the effect is by far not as extreme as you say.

Ok, Mutas are not the only thing you shoud fear:

Photobucket

All these tanks can kill at least some workers, many can kill the gas, and a few can even kill the cc/hatch/nex. And be assured that I would have found more holes if you wouldn't always protect your maps.
Lancet
Thanks spinesheath, a picture speaks 1000 words. As to the nat, as a general rule a wider nat is harder to defend than a narrower one but yeah, too narrow can also raises problems of its own, I don't know how this one will work.
Paladin-EX
I have to admit, that's a damn pretty map. But I think maybe there should be a small expo at the Northernmost point? It just seems so empty up there, like it needs something in the Basilica area just to flesh it out. Maybe even just a small decoration in the center.
Nightmarjoo
Grief feel free to enlighten me with respect to Dapixx, I honestly don't remember why I pissed him off very well. As for LGI, I remember that clearly, and I remember him being a rotten child who hated people who thought differently than him, wanted everything his way, and was surprised when it turned out that public opinion wasn't even for his side, and all of that was too much for him to handle apparently so he deleted his maps and ran. He came back, and subsequently left again because he couldn't handle that I got a map he didn't like into iccup, and that none of his maps got anywhere.
Nightmarjoo
As for the map, first thing I notice is gas issue. Consistently keeping the gas issue, even when there's no legitimate reason to have it, is kind of silly -.-

The nat imo is too tight, in that there isn't enough room around the minerals and gas. The wide nat choke allows for pathing to be fine, but it is quite defensible still, which makes the nat fairly secure from normal attack. From harass, it is fairly vulnerable because of things like: lack of space for static defense and tank holes.

I don't think the 3rd gas is too close, imo it's far enough to not be a problem. If anything, it's too far, for terran in tvp. Protoss can take the 3rd gas like on tau, but terran cannot so easily take it because of how far it is away. However, without the 3rd gas being far away from terran, pushing would be too easy given the tight choke, and the ability to go around and flank terran wouldn't be terribly effective because of the speed at which terran can push: plenty of turret space along with that tight choke would make it easy and quick to push as terran. The need to use the more open areas and push slower because the 3rd base is so far away actually imo corrects this and balances tvp. Additionally, towards the top of the map the areas are generally tight, but the alternate paths help protoss again. The distance of the 4th base, and the fact that it is min only, with the 4th gas being even farther away, keeps protoss from being too strong.
tl;dr I think tvp is good on this map, the mu is well balanced I think.

I think the stuff I mentioned above, along with the harassability of all of the bases which applies to the above section also, applies to pvz, keeping it fairly nice and balanced.

I think the sunken ground at 3/9 is uncessary, and needlessly and possibly detrimentally tightens the paths there.

I wish you'd fix the gas issue by placing the gas directly above the starting locations instead of placing it on the side a bit. The geysers won't be in the way if they're there, and they will undoubtedly be positionally balanced.

The nats could be improved imo if you gave some breathing room around the minerals and geyser behind them. Also, to avoid tank holes and such, you can replace it with solid water, a better matrix of basilica, or a high dirt matrix. I think the basilica web at 3/9 is almost 100% free of tank holes, except for the place between the point of the first and second arrows.

Also, I don't know how stable an ovy position your nat cliff thing makes, but you might look into that.

I actually think this map is decent. I'll see if I can get some games on it, as my theory crafting hasn't dug up any blatant issues.
MorroW
zerg is always the one with most expands AND least workers (u should know the reason), thats why it doesnt matter so much how many mineral chunks there are because it is already enough for him always.

terran is the one expanding least so he is the guy that wins the most the fewer expands a map has.

my point is there should be 1 more mineral chunk, choose your self if in nat or in main

(btw i did read all comments before)
Johnny B.Goode
I don't know how you did this,but it's really-really wicked.By the way I'm not agree with those who ask for more minerals in the main/nat.Everything between 10-7 for the main and 8-6 for the nat is acceptable.The map isnt poor in minerals nor the next expansions are too far from the nat.If a zerg think only about his eco,he wouldnt be able to defend himself if a terran/protoss will push.So even if a terran expand slower as zerg you run into a disaster if you expand at all costs.

The way you deal with the nat is crucial in my opinion.As terran you could defend in the early game better than the other 2 races.But beware when mutas attack,few room for turrets/cannons.As t it's one of very few maps that I know,where valkyries are really useful.Here,to protect the nat.Gols/M&M cannot help you because of the unwalkable terrain arround the nat,wraiths arent tough enough.As p the same.I dont think you have enough time to tech the psi-storm for templars.
Nightmarjoo
lol
MorroW
lol
Grief_Stricken
i regret but i can respond to all these requests.nevertheless you should know that i read all the comments.

well i'm not happy either if there are such holes near to the nat.i thought from the most holes you cannot reach the nat.as i played terran i try to drop in the near of the nat but i couldn't.-spinesheat-must really tried endless times before he found the proper holes i guess,otherwise he would give me an rep instead of a pic.he' becoming a true"hole-finder".but in a serious game you don't have time to micro so much 'til you can finally drop.however i fix this thing that trouble him so much.no dropable holes anymore near to the nat.about the nat defense,i dont agree with him.3/4 cannos aren't much as protoss and as terran i wonder if you really can defend like in the pic.

more resources in the main? - i dont think so.in the nat no way.it's not much room and with more mins it would become even more tighter.for me the amount of minerals wasn't a problem so far.spinesheat analogy to bgh is far out - comparisons with money maps are improper.and one min piece more doesn't make the map racially imba!i don't waiste my time to argue on this level,because it simply bullshit.the resources amount remains as supplied before.

the main-nat setup will remain like it is because it's unique,and it play like on no other map.zerg have a fair chance to harass not only on the nat but also on the 3 expo and on the minonly too,with mutas.there are 3 ovi spots on this map;on 3,9 & a big one on 6.i really wonder whitout air support how you wanna hurt a zerg that plays muta?only from the ground...?and how you wanna kill some ovis?but on these spots they are out of range.i agree with jb goode,against a muta playin'zerg you will need flyers.only in the case zerg doesn't plays muta you don't need them.

nightmarjoo's concern about the gas issue is the old story.currently the gas is 2 positions left/right from the 12.you have played hundred of games on luna i guess but only a baby will pretend he loose a game because of the gas issue.'cause otherwise it wouldn't be over all the years the most played and still present in league 'til today.and compared to this map it's a huge gas imba on luna.on this map is not even worth to talk about.don't freak out by such small things.

i didn't upload a new picture 'cause the differences to the previous version are minimal for the eyes

and about the old stories i think you know what i mean better than you are prepared to admit.but if your memory is so rusty,please i make it short.the dapixx story was the moty story(the - i ignore plenty of votes and i dont give a damn about those who voted for it-story) a giant mess.and the lgi story started when you wrote in your map -fuck lgi- with spells.-how you will act if someone else will do the same thing? what's about to argue here...
spinesheath
Fine, there is your replay. If you watch it closely, you might actually notice that this is the game which I took the screenshots in. From this, we may conclude that it was my first try. I wouldn't say that it took me all that long to find some decent tank holes. Now assume I try that again, knowing where to drop those things. It would take at most half the time. Then there are those guys who play SC competitively. They examine a map and practice even the tiniest moves thoroughly. There are people who can fit a tank inside a hole just as big as a tank in no more than a few seconds.

And just for your information: There is a tank hole where I was able to fit 6 tanks inside (bottom of the picture). Actually, there is space for even more. How bad must someone be not to fit a single tank into a hole big enough for 6?
I have serious doubts in your knowledge about Starcraft and how it is played.


And since picures say so much more than words:

Photobucket

By the way: I never said that you should add more minerals to this map and I will never say it.

As of the gas issue here: It's roughly 5% for zvz. That's ok, but why the hell should you not fix it when it is simple as that? That's pretty much just rofl at you.

Why should you not be able to defend like on the pic? Well usually you wouldn't get this many tanks when you are playing mnm (vs zerg I would assume), but there is space for more tanks. Seriously, I wouldn't fear anything (on the ground) with that defense.

Grief_Stricken
"I have serious doubts in your knowledge about Starcraft and how it is played."well you should think seriously about yourself in this matter.this replay doesn't prove anything,it's sad that you don't realize it.damn, i dont know what tool/hack/ you used but you dont need to care about anything in this game.you can build instantly - in a game u can't.your units are invincible - in a game they aren't.you have view over the entire map - in a game you don't have.so your only concern was to find this holes, and for this matter you have all the time that you need - in the game you don't have it.all the things that you care in a game you don't worry.and why you cannot defend like in the picture? simple.in a game you will own the nat before you have so much tanks.and when you have these tanks the nat area will be full of workers - you wouldn't stop the mining to place tanks.you would place wherever you can at best.in your rep you have all the time to place these 1 sec maded tanksin the nat,and after this to send workers.but that way sc doesn't work.that's why this rep doesn't show anything - only that you find some holes.but because you cannont simulate the true sc feeling it' useless.who the hell has time in a game to find holes when the other attacks and you have to care about you macro+supply etc?

enough of this.i don't know if you realize it but this issue is fixed since midday,btw
MorroW
why dont u just fix the holes? :P
i mean does it hurt to actually just put some unwalkable rocks there?
Grief_Stricken
>>THEY ARE FIXED SINCE MIDDAY<<<
Lancet
Nightmarjoo wrote:

"As for LGI, I remember that clearly, and I remember him being a rotten child who hated people who thought differently than him, wanted everything his way, and was surprised when it turned out that public opinion wasn't even for his side, and all of that was too much for him to handle apparently so he deleted his maps and ran. He came back, and subsequently left again because he couldn't handle that I got a map he didn't like into iccup, and that none of his maps got anywhere."

Well, it is a truism that the victors (or at least those who stay) write the history. When I saw LGI's maps and learned he had won 4-5 MOTW my attitude changed towards him. I learned that he loved this site and credited those here with making him a better mapper.

Although he did not regard me highly he did exchange some PMs with me when I offered to upload his maps and he wrote back that for that to happen Nightmarjoo had to leave and he seemed to blame him for many things. As LGI is not with us anymore and can't defend himself against Nightmarjoo's version of events I will copy here a PM I received from him and let that do the talking.

I asked when will we be able to have your maps back and he said:

"When panschk fires Nightmarjoo, then it's ok for me.

Till then no respect for panschk (BWMN), because he let Nightmarjoo to destroy a lot of progress which BWMN older admins like StarParty, EpidiOn, Entropy, Flothefreak, SpitFire, Trcc, Arden(WoF) and others were working on it, to make BWMN the top site for top quality maps for leagues, etc, etc and when Nightmarjoo come with no experience, without knowing the history of BWMN, panschk give him admin rights, because he was like you, making big posts, with lots of theory crafting and that was the time when panschk didn't watch BWMN too often and Nightmarjoo was abusing his powers, and start his own things, he didn't care about the team work before and many of the older admins/mappers just quit wasting their nerves on this guy and here is it now. The future. With no BWMN showmatch, no Dream Project, no GG.Net special privet forum for picked only mappers from here, no tournaments, late picked MotW/MotM, what ever... We are just waiting for someone to find us and give us conditions for a map... Before WE WERE THE GUYS WHO MAKE THE RULES! Now we are just used... Our work isn't paid, nobody will know if your maps gets in ICCUP, only BWMN members will know, not the players."
modified by Lancet
Nightmarjoo
oh come on rofl. That's just complete bs. How did I destroy what the older mappers did? They fucking left and went afk before I became an admin. It was because all of the old mappers became afk that new admins such as myself and Nastymarine were chosen.

The old mappers had a lot of influence in pgt. They had good connections, and I believe some were pgt admins. None of us have such power over iccup, and for a while after pgt died and before iccup, there was no such league.

Yes, the things on gg.net dissapeared, that's hardly my fault. The mappers with connections to gg.net left or became inactive. Nastymarine tried his best to revive some of things, and was marginally successful in the Avaton tournaments.

Panschk gave me admin power because I was active and wanted to help the site.

In that post, LGI just blamed me for everything that went wrong with bwm and its connection to the other sites and the players. The problem with that is, I had 0 influence in any of that. The connections died off long before I was an admin, because the mappers who WERE involved, and DID have influence, left or became inactive. That's hardly my fault, unless it was my fault that they left, except that it wasn't, and there's no way you could blame me for that when at the time I was just a noob mapper new to the site without any power or influence -.-

LGI claims I abused my powers, but doesn't cite how I abused them -.- When motw clearly started becoming less active, I wanted to be proactive in improving its quality and encouraging people to make maps for it. The biggest thing I ever tried was imposing a rule that people should comment on a map and explain why they like it if they vote for it. Panschk told me that was overstepping my authority and I deleted the post and made no such attempt to reform motw again.

You can search this site for threads dealing with LGI, look at what the other mappers have to say. Nastymarine and lnept were both very vocal in talking about how LGI was a spoiled child. You can see how LGI bmed people and was surprised when they bm'd back.

Want to know the story behind the "fuck LGI" event? SalazarSlytherin's (4)Taklamakan won motw. It won the vote lol, and had replays. Nastymarine posted the map. I think he edited a newspost LGI had already made for something, I don't remember, and LGI was freaking out. LGI started to quick pm me (click on name while they're on the site, instead of using the mail-pm format thing) things like "lick my penis" and other obscene comments, and was flaming me for having posted Taklamakan as motw (even though it was Nasty, though I'd have happily posted it too) because HE DIDN'T LIKE IT. Now it's true, the map didn't have the best gameplay in the world, but it didn't play horribly. LGI was having a pissy fit because things weren't going his way. He was going to overturn a motw majority vote for his opinion. Hell, haven't I been blamed for the same thing? Especially for Galaxy Prime being motw/moty. LGI was active in making sure Desert Flower wasn't made motw, despite its majority vote (every experienced mapper except starparty was up in arms about desert flower, no one decent thought it was anything more than crap, but dapixx, grief, grig, spoilr and the others all voted for it). This started tensions between LGI and myself. I later posted a map of mine SPESFIDISSIMA which is no longer on the site. It featured dweb/swarm in main, much like that in Shushan Day. LGI was flaming me for using the spells, and wouldn't listen to the stuff I said to support using it. I got really mad at LGI, so when I updated the map slightly, when creating the image I spelled "FUCK LGI" with ghosts then killed them, leaving a bloody red trail spelling the word, and took the image with that in it. So then, everyone who looked at the pic saw "FUCK LGI". Was I out of line here? Yeah I was, that was pretty bm, though it was in response to huge bm on LGI's part. LGI became enraged (despite having said similar and worse things to me) and deleted the map. I immediately notified Panshck very clearly of the situation via pm (I can dig up the pm if you want), and he removed LGI's admin power. LGI deleted his maps and left the site for a while. LGI also didn't like me because I posted on his map Entheogenic that I didn't think it would play well because of several things (I don't remember what now), and clearly stated in my long drawn out way why I thought the map would play bad. He of course responded by flaming me and telling me I was just noob and wrong, without explaining why I was noob and wrong. That's a big part of him deleting his maps. He just can't take criticism, because he thinks he's better than everyone else.
Nightmarjoo
"This is a recommendation that LGI be stripped of admin rights.
He recently deleted my map (4)SPESFIDISSIMA1.1 solely to further an unprovoked personal vendetta.

In the map's thread (in case you hadn't seen it) he had been screaming about sprite issues, not that he volunteered to help test it at all or comment on other things in the map. Lately he has been overly agressive towards me in PMs, when I posted for Nasty Taklamakan as motw he was bming me with "Lick my dick" "Fuck you" etc.

Throughout his time at broodwarmaps he has always been bad mannered, being very rude to everyone he can be. I've always ignored it and tried to cooperate with him, but his deleting of my map as 'trash' was a step too far.
As he'll tell you, he deleted the map because I wrote in the new map pic 'Fuck LGI' with dead ghost bodies, no doubt childish, but not any more so than what he posted and has said to me for no apparent reason.

LGI has never contributed to the site through use of admin powers, his contributions were always through the means any member can. When he complained about MOTW choices and I decided to not post it then to avoid conflict, he wouldn't post a map he liked himself.

I could easily replace my map to the site, but chances are he'll delete it again regardless of what the image has in it.

Essentially, I recommend his admin rights be removed because he doesn't contribute with them, and has severely abused it. You've known LGI much longer than I have, I think it's clear that if he has abused his powers to that extent once he'll readily do it again, that a 'warning' won't stop him and his conflict mongering attitude.
I don't want to make this an open thing, because LGI will only worsen the conflict. I don't feel like stooping to his level and abusing my admin rights, so I'm asking you to as head moderator of this site to keep it under control and out of the hands of abuser LGI"

here's the pm I sent panschk in response to LGI deleting SPESFIDISSIMA.
The argument over the map which he was flaming me about was that my map had too many sprites, and units like valkyries wouldn't be able to fire their rockets, etc. It would've been a valid point, except that I tested the map, even once or twice with lnept and it proved to be wrong, that the sprite limit exists to prevent that issue, and filling that limit but not exceeding it won't cause problems. LGI apparently thought he was right and I was wrong, despite replay proof, and flamed me for it -.-
Nightmarjoo
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/forum/showthread.php?threadid=621
"LGI vs Nightmarjoo" thread.
Lancet
I can't answer for LGI, that is what he told me. He may have distorted or exagerated out of anger but this was before my time. In that thread however, there is plenty of stuff about you that I and others have experienced personally. I see a lot of similarities between you and LGI one difference being that he seems to have an ultra-short fuse and I can imagine all too well the many ways in which you could have set it off. You can make a case that it is obvious that LGI was no "angel", I just hope it is clear to all that this issue is not one-sided.

Anyway, nuff said, have the last word if you want.
spinesheath
How about letting me have the last word?

Both LGI and NM are not innocent in this case. At least not if we believe what both of them say, and we can't tell whether one of them is lying.

Nightmarjoo has contributed a lot to the site, and from what I can see, most people more or less agree with his recent actions as an admin. I would be happy to have LGI back, but that can't be a reason to push NM out of bwmn.

Let's just lie this case down. It can only be resolved by NM and LGI personally.


Back to the map; which is the funnier story anyways.
Grief, have you ever heard of "show me the money", "power overwhelming", "operation cwal", "there is no cow level", "food for thought", "black sheep wall" and all the other single player cheats? Obviously not. Seriously, how long have you been playing that game?
No, I don't need those cheats to be able to win any games. Not in single player and not in multi player. You might watch the replay on Pacland in which I beat 5 stupid-as-always computers just because King8 said it would be pretty much impossible on this map. This should verify that I don't need those cheats. If you don't think so, I don't care.

Now back to my replay on your map:
How long do you think it will take me to find a tank hole from now on? Two more tries and I would be able to find one blindly with my arms tied on my back. If YOU can't do that, then that's your problem. But everyone else will be able to do it.

Maneuvering a tank through a worker line seems to be too hard for you, too...?


I know that you at least say that the tank holes are fixed, but my main concern is: When will you ever accept that you are wrong in something?
modified by spinesheath
LGI
For fuck sake, a friend of mine, asked me to see this topic and for what? Just to waste my time...

I will be short.

Nightmarjoo, this is just your look for all things, mine is different. As i am reading your staff i see that many of my posts here in the past are not understood right from your side, well thats your problem, but don't fool people with bullshits... And at least you can stop lie the people. You won, you are the big bad wolf here, who can do anything he wants.

Believe me or not, i don't care, because i don't care anymore for any of you guys here. Hate me if you like, i don't care.

So as spinesheath said, let it go... There is no point anymore. I quit everything connected to BW, community, gaming, mapping. Now i am all focused on open airs, festivals, promoting, DJing, traveling, making projects for festivals, etc, etc.

Psychedelic is my life. You can even see all of my map names are named to a psychedelic bands, compilations, albums, etc, etc...

Atm i am in the office, when i get back in home i will see whats left from my maps (the bad thing is that all my new versions of my older maps are gone, i want it to BOOM you all before my second quit here, but i didn't get to this, sad...), i will make a map pack and give it to Lancet, then he can do whatever he wants, i give him all rights even if he wants to change the author of the maps - i really don't care.

For me BW stayed too long in my hart - 10 years... It's all gone now.
Grief_Stricken
@spinesheat - i strongly suggest you to think awhile about your last question.btw,i don't know if you realize it but this is your second complaint about things fixed before.

your entire statement is pointless,actually.i simply don't see the joke.and btw it was possible from the start to avoid all this shit.why you didn't upload a normal rep?that way you could show me even against a comp how you can expoilt these holes,in a normal game under usual sc conditions.but no!let post first pictures - after this a rep full of cheats - and now you talk and talk 'til you're blue in your face about things that are already fixed .i have played this map nearly 30 times before i upload it,and no one droped tanks in this holes so far(i'm talkin' about the previous version).i for myself knew for the editor that those holes near to the nat have been blocked by doodads,thats why i dont try it.ok - some people find out that some of these holes are still tankable.and i fix them.what the hell you want now? to talk yourself to death about them?I FIX THEM!!.i can estimate you in the meantime good enough to know that you tried to find some new tankable holes - dream on!

and to your last question again - whenever you can prove it!
modified by Grief_Stricken
spinesheath
About "my last question": I prove that there ARE tankholes, which is ALL that matters. It does NOT matter how easy or hard they are to access. There ARE people who WILL abuse any aspect of any map if they have the chance to. No matter how hard to find - every tank hole lies bare to abuse.
If none of the people you tested the map with dropped tanks there, they either didn't examine the map properly, or weren't "creative" enough to abuse those tank holes (first thing I'd think of when there is a cliff next to an expansion), or the game was over too early or they just have no idea how strong such abuse is (sure, since nowadays most maps have no tank holes, you can't witness the strength of such all that often).

Everything would have been fine if you just said "ok, there are tank holes. I'll fix them." after I posted those pictures.
But no, you needed a replay. And not just any replay; it has to be a replay of a halfway serious game. And if I had brought a replay of a "serious" game against the comp right from the start (oh how HARD would that be, comps are SOOOO strong), you would have wanted a game against a human player. And if I had brought such, you probably would have wanted to see 100 reps of korean progamers abusingt this thing every single time.
A picture is ENOUGH of a proof! Get it already.
Grief_Stricken
no! a pic is not enough not for such things.'cause you can see these tanks in the holes but you cannot see if they can hit something.only in a rep you can.

how many times you wanna discuss about them from now one?can't you simply accept that they aren't a threat for the nat anymore or what?
modified by Grief_Stricken
MorroW
he just want a replay of a gg and to see if ur good enough to drop tanks that fast in that extreamly big tank whole that anyone can drop :)

anyway i opened the map and saw tank holes was fixed, so sry for my bad atention must be annoying to hear stupid comment like i did

i have no idea what u talk about i just wish i could get some comments in my maps :P

feels like its enough for a popoular mapmaker to cr8 a bad map and get many more comments than it really deserve
Grief_Stricken
to make it clear.i don't want anything not from you nor from anyone else,at the very least that someone shouldn't pervert facts.if anyone claim something about it,he must prove it,not only suggest a possibility.this is a big difference.

and if you think so about this map perhaps you should let the matter rest
spinesheath
Oh lol man. Do you honestly think I would stuff the place with tanks and not make sure they can actually hit something? I also provided that replay (which wasn't worthy enough for you, of course, my sincerest apologies), where I killed my own marines just to make sure those tanks can hit something.

By the way, if you played SC for some time, you SHOULD be able to tell how far a tank can shoot. In a tvt you often have to move your tanks in range of your opponents tanks, but out of their sight range. Being able to tell how far a tank may shoot is one of the most essential things in any matchup with and versus terran.

>to make it clear.i don't want anything not from
>you nor from anyone else,at the very least that
>someone shouldn't pervert facts.if anyone claim
>something about it,he must prove it,not only
>suggest a possibility.this is a big difference.

If everyone had to prove anything he says about your map, then you would stay without any comments at all.
People on bwmn are actually trying to help others improve their maps. You can't expect everyone to do hours of work for you. Same for positive comments: If someone wants to say that he thinks your map is balanced, he will have to prove that (or will you let everyone praise you, but not let negative comments get through?). Proving that a map is balanced is hard. I'd say not under 100 replays of decent players.


Anyways, I won't "waiste my time" (as you put it so nicely) on this anymore.
MorroW
why dont u put that walkable baslica doodad like a line so u know where "high baslica" starts?, im talking about 12 o clock
Nightmarjoo
LGI I don't hate you, and never have. I simply have defended by side in response to a pm you sent to lancet. In the United States when there's a dispute, an individual is expected to defend himself with evidence as proof he is "right", and all I've done is defend myself, and point out why I feel the other party is "wrong".

For Grief, why do you post your maps here? You post maps, but ignore all comments, so why do you post at all here, knowing people will respond, which you will ignore? You clearly don't want "help" with your map, so why post at all?
When presented with "proof" of a claim, you ignore that to, so you don't in fact want "proof". You want only comments which say the map is good, but you don't want them to prove the map is good, just that they don't say anything bad about it.
Grief_Stricken
my appeals met with no response!!you drive me mad spinesheath.don't stop-just keep it up.!

"Oh lol man. Do you honestly think I would stuff the place with tanks and not make sure they can actually hit something?" -wherefrom should i know it? look for yourself to the 2 picture where the tanks are in holes.can you see the nat?can you really appreciate what you see in the pictureabout the distance?only that is possible to drop.are these tanks able to hit something?i can surmise about the gas - but i have no certitude because i see very few from the nat.you claim that it was possible to hit the cc.but the cc isn't in the pic!so i have to trust only your word,right?but this is not good enough for me!when i upload a map it means i think it is a good one,not to mention the creative work.you on the other hand want to change things for some reasons.but i don't change things on my maps solely because people suggest some possible issues.if someone thinks he find out some issues,he must prove them.otherwise - no thanks!this doesn't imply you cannont comment a map nor that i am rigid or not tough enough to accept critics.but for CHANGES you need to prove your presumtions.and actually this is what you want from me-changes!

nmjoo-you are wrong i haven't ignore important thoughts.i have debugged all these "bad" holes at the moment it was proved.on the other hand i don't need to consider all the things that others wants from me.
modified by Grief_Stricken
Nightmarjoo
gas issue? why not fix it? what's benefit of placing the gas where they are? The detriment is they mine differnently oO
spinesheath
Lancet mentioned that there are tank holes.
I provided further evidence (if you are not able to tell tank range then that's your problem).
And it's YOUR f*cking duty to find out if these claims are true and HOW to fix them. This map is neither mine nor Lancet's. YOU are responsible for improving it, NOT the people suggesting issues.

And by the way: You are the ONLY person on this whole page who does not believe me when I say "these tanks can hit the min line". Why would you not trust my words? Because I criticize your map?
Grief_Stricken
@spinesheath -about the first part of you comment.obviously you haven't read my previous comment,otherwise you wouldn't answer me like you did.only one small mention for my part:i have no kind of duties or responsabilities.it's only my good will and comity about you spoken.and if you antagonize me furthermore like you use to do maybe i will change my attitude.

about the last part of your comment.firstly let me say i don't check your comments to find if this is so;neverthelss it sounds like you assume to much."Why would you not trust my words?" - why should i?since i am here you never show any skills as mapper.or only because you are admin?you should know me in meantime good enough to realize that such things doesn't impress me at all.that circus that you start here is unworthy for an serious person in charge.you have alot to learn.your duty isn't to harass people arround rather,in case you wanna comment their maps,to point out issues,to warn about some imbas etc.and after this let them do whatever they want with their maps.only in case they want from you more infos/help help them.have i??as example take a look to my comment on cracklings map (2)sleepers.all my words are proven in a rep,even if it's only against a comp.he can do whatever he want with his map,he can changed it based on that what i told him,or he can ignore it.whatever he decide it's ok with me.it doesn't takes me hours like you said in one of your comment.and even if;it's my time and i spend it because i want.it was my free will - my free decision.but this doesn't give me the right to expect he must change his map ,even if i'm right.
LasTCursE
best map maker ;)
Grief_Stricken
well thx; if you like it so much maybe you are prepared to play it(or let it be played be others)& upload some reps.the site really need test players...
LasTCursE

modified by LasTCursE
LasTCursE
New Rep ?
Manhattan
Apparently.

I guess I missed seeing this map when it came out.

"he resign to be active furthermore because of nightmarjoo"

big lulz
Grief_Stricken
"I guess I missed seeing this map when it came out."

u guess wrong; u r too new to know good enough the ppl around the way i know them. in fact u have not the faintest idea about the past of bwmn, nor the ppl being once active here.

so pipe down everytime u talking about things you don't know.and beware some decency for later;in case u will need it
Testbug
okay this is what happened:
nightmarjoo is the funniest guy and has the best sens of humor in the world.
Grief is a very sensitive person whos susceptible makes him cry
Grief_Stricken
...since when has nmjoo a sense for humor?!? your sense of humor seems to be massive underdeveloped if nmjoo is for u the funiest guy in the world. what are the most funniest things he posted so far??

but maybe,just maybe you could be right.i forgot all his cute comments on the 1st site about the motm's - that's good humor,agree...on the other hand he is too repetitive for my taste :(
modified by Grief_Stricken
spinesheath
Stop acting as if you were the great bwmn patriarch. You are not.
Grief_Stricken
now this is a sample of german humor;not my taste either...just too cramped :((
Testbug
that's all.
grief doesn't like our jokes.
he gets pissed.
then he post the famous "grief comments"

that's hou Grief's mother teached him :(
Crimson)S(hadow
@spinesheath... yes fastest is 50 minerals stacked, but as far as 1v1's go, toss's worker production is not what makes toss dominant in fastest.... its the storm drops
spinesheath
Wow, that was old...

Don't forget that zerg gets into a big economical disadvantage because of drones turning into buildings and hatcheries being so expensive and useless as expansions on fastest.
Also, protoss can make more use of minerals than terran because neither marines nor vults work well on fastest against protoss.
larjarse
Those in this topic, in exception of LGI, who sit at their desk and writes several paragraphs arguing their Starcraft knowledge or how long they have been at bwmn, or how leet they say they are: You should consider growing up and letting go of your Starcraft obsession. I've played for a long time, and mapped for a long time. I never say I am better than anyone, or anyone sucks. I am 19 years old, too old to yell at people over the internet about a game that came out when I was 8 or so.

I do still love playing starcraft, and I joined this site in hopes of becoming part of something bigger. I thought as a community, if we all put in effort, we can change things in Starcraft. I thought people here would be non biased and would like to help everyone out equally, as all of our brains as a whole can accomplish much more than one.

I did not find that here. I found a cliquey, girly, shit talking, condescending, exclusive community. A few of you think your shit doesn't stink, and noone else knows what they are doing when it comes to starcraft.

I remember seeing a post of this guy, listing all the ramp packs and special terrain maps he had, but wouldn't post any of them to benefit the website. Fuck stuff like that.

I do like this map alot, but those tank holes do look like they can be an issue.

I especially like the lowdirt-hidirt transition at the top, but again, how will I differentiate between low and high baliscalla?
modified by larjarse
larjarse
and P.S.

I think it's ridiculous that Nightmarjoo is an admin. He is a condescending asshole. I understand that he is active and wants to help, however, his comments cause more mischeif than they do good, and they are extremely biased. He offers his opinion in a way that says he knows everything and you know nothing, and he tends to be extremely narrow minded when alternatives thoughts and concepts are suggested. His front page articles belittle everyone, including "motm" winners. Like wtf? That's a good way to keep members here, make them feel like they shouldnt be making maps.
LasTCursE
wtf is with larjarse spaming on grief's maps ;? :D
Nightmarjoo
Glad I'm still so popular, thought you guys had forgotten me or something!
Kinosjourney
I think it's dumb that Nightmarjoo made some mappers leave and i can't think of anything that he have done for the site, LGI was a good mapper and i'd love to have him back.

After all this site is made for everyone to submit their maps and discuss them, and maybe even improve as a mapper. It's not only about making awesome league-worthy maps but enjoying what you do. Hell, im not a good map maker - infact i suck and im too lazy to correct my maps but i still make them cause i enjoy it. Can't you guys just stop fucking fighting?

Also, what happened to Starparty, did he go inactive? I haven't been with the site for very long so i don't know.
modified by Kinosjourney
Replays


--TANKS vs NON-TANKS(1on1, 1.16)
--DreAmiN vs HilariouS(1on1, 1.16)
--SKTelecomT_Bisu vs QEd)RE(1on1, 1.16)
--SKTelecomT_Bisu vs DreAmiN(1on1, 1.16)
--RedtoSSS vs bleebber(1on1, 1.16)
--MeSmell_S2 vs i_shaLL_kiLL_U(1on1, 1.16)
--vazze vs numnushater(1on1, 1.16)
--E]z-UnrealNoob vs By.Hero(1on1, 1.16)
--25)viSion vs GuN-Ku3(1on1, 1.16)
--Rocket[PaiN] vs SCC-Tpb(1on1, 1.16)
--Pirate[uC] vs LoOk.in(1on1, 1.16)
--Rocket[PaiN] vs vazze(1on1, 1.16)
--Sky.Korean vs Extra-Crispy(1on1, 1.16)
--SCC-Tpb vs HilariouS(1on1, 1.16)
--m)T(Filler vs HilariouS(1on1, 1.16)
--Sky.Korean vs BoBBySue(1on1, 1.16)
--Sky.Korean vs BoBBySue(1on1, 1.16)
--Sky.Korean vs BoBBySue(1on1, 1.16)
--aG.Whom vs classic_suho(1on1, 1.16)
--aG.Whom vs RuFF(TR)(1on1, 1.16)
--aG.Whom vs RuFF(TR)(1on1, 1.16)
--aG.Whom vs RuFF(TR)(1on1, 1.16)
--aG.flos vs BoBBySue(1on1, 1.16)
--HilariouS vs Wiggles_US(1on1, 1.16)
--aG.flos vs BoBBySue(1on1, 1.16)
--aG.Whom vs aG.flos(1on1, 1.16)
--Sky.Korean vs BoBBySue(1on1, 1.16)
--Rancores vs ibats(1on1, 1.16)
--Hero]Control vs river(1on1, 1.16)
--Hero]Control vs -]Anarchy[-(1on1, 1.16)
--Hero]Control vs -]Anarchy[-(1on1, 1.16)
--Cheko vs river(1on1, 1.16)
--Hero]Control vs river(1on1, 1.16)
--Qed_Eld vs Serespiro(1on1, 1.16)
--Qed_Eld vs Serespiro(1on1, 1.16)
--SKTelecomT_Bisu vs Rocket[PaiN](1on1, 1.16)
--Qed_Bisu vs BobbySue(1on1, 1.16)
--Qed_Bisu vs BobbySue(1on1, 1.16)
--BobbySue vs sauron(1on1, 1.16)
--BobbySue vs Serespiro(1on1, 1.16)
--Sky.Korean vs yoshiok(1on1, 1.16)
--Sky.Korean vs yoshiok(1on1, 1.16)
--dahlia vs Hotline(1on1, 1.16)
--laugh.now vs canlen(1on1, 1.16)
--aG.Whom vs aenexus(1on1, 1.16)
--SH-Thanatos vs suicide)res(1on1, 1.16)
--ngu.ak vs papa_pi(1on1, 1.16)
--PireTe[uC] vs HyanG[Own](1on1, 1.16)
--DreAmiN vs InTheSnow(1on1, 1.16)
--prusha vs SilliestGoosE(1on1, 1.16)

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