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Last update for (2)Cloud of Souls : 2010, 08, 26 16:29
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
3714 (2)Cloud of Souls 96*128Nightmarjoo & TkTkVrooM1.7finalground

The map has been rated 79 times and got a total of 134 points
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You can rate the map here. Chose a grade between 10 (best) and 0 (worst).
Comments:   GMCS (3 elements)


coV
Woot RoV clone...kind of. Nice Troy Gates :)
Trooper
those are assis, and people think i dont know anything about starcraft. Its like reversed rov clone with differnces.
coV
I like to call them gates.
Nightmarjoo
The mains have a backdoor path blocked by a "Nightmarjoo gate". This is a single egg-blocked path with a halucinated mineral on the other side for scouting purposes. This allows players to scout eachother quickly without making the distance from main2nat too short for the rest of gameplay. This also functions as a harass path later on.

The mineral on the inside of the main is 3 stacked 0-block minerals atm, subject to change. The halucinated mineral will dissapear at 56-57 seconds of real time at fastest game speed. If protoss scouts right after pylon at 8 (depending on pylon location) he will JUST make it in time. To make it in time terran must scout at 8, when his 8th scv is being made. This is earlier than most terrans scout, but not a problem since this is the time terran sends an scv to kill the neutral creep colony in colosseum2. To make it in time zerg would have to scout at 7, but he doesn't need to since his overlord will see the minerals in time for a 9 scout or anything later.

The island mineral block is 20 stacked 0-blocks. The nat backdoor min block is made up of stacked 0-blocks also. In order of being farther from middle, the values are 10, 20, 30, 40 respectively.

The troy gate does not for some reason let ghosts through when both assims are destroyed, tk placed the assims not me so I dunno what happened. Other than that they work perfectly. You could even say this is more correct than the Troy gate itself, unless letting ghosts through was part of its concept?

Pathing is good on this map. The only time you'll have trouble is if you right click on the enemy main from your main (assuming the egg wall is there still). This is what you want to do to scout initially if you plan on using that short path, and then you just right click the mineral when you get vision of it on the other side and your worker travels through. If you right click the mineral but it disappears before your worker is through the egg, it will NOT go through, it's annoying.

If you right click enemy main from the edge of your main choke (inside the nat) you will have no pathing problems. This means as soon as you start rallying to your nat you should have zero pathing problems. The nat backdoor could create some problems though if you tried to go straight from your nat to the corner expo with the wall still there, but I can't see this ever being a problem without the player being retarded.

The nat is entirely safe from tanks from behind.

Umm that's about it, the rest of the map is pretty straight forward. The nightmarjoo gate is important to the concept, the map's entire layout is based on that semi-island and the nightmarjoo gate. While it doesn't effect scouting a whole lot (the longer path is longer than a normal scouting route though), it is an important mechanic for players to consider. Do they want to scout through it? Do they want to prevent their opponents from being able to use it? Did they miss the halucinated mineral and are forced to take the longer path? When do they want to take the island? etc.
Nightmarjoo
Trooper he's not saying "troy gateways" he's calling the feature a "Troy Gate" which is atleast what I always call it.

While I admit there are certainly many similarities to rov, I would argue the layout and gameplay is much more similar to that of BlitzX than of rov, and there's nothing reversed about this map.
We used neither map in our original concept planning or for influence at all however, the map just turned out similar. I would say that "some differences" doesn't quite give the whole picture. I would say "map is a rov clone with a LOT of differences", but then you could say that about almost any map (map is an Othello clone with differences). There are just not a whole lot of options when it comes to designing a map with this kind of symmetry. If you look at every (2)map with x-mirroring you will find a lot of similarities between all of them, that's just how it works. This flies for all maps using the same symmetry really.
sTY_leZerG-eX
I see ROV here.
Nightmarjoo
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/Heroes11.jpg
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)Ride%20of%20Valkyries1.0_Logo.jpg
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/frosting1.JPG
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)Coastal%20Battery%201.3.jpg (rotate it in your mind)
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/10th_blitz.gif
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)Heart%20of%20Firebat.JPG
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)Fallen%20(p).jpg
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/(2)grief%20stricken%201.2%20(o).jpg

Notice anything similar about these random maps which have the same type of symmetry/layout? I can find (4)maps and other (2)maps with different symmetry that have more in common with this map than does rov. The only reason you see rov and not another map is because of the high basillica on top of high dirt with big ramps. Well sorry this kind of altitudal feature is only available in twilight (other tilesets who have this altitudal diversity lack good inverted/large ramps), so we're stuck with that coincidentally similar feature. The main/nat placement is crucial to the map's concept, and the expo layout is built around that, and good expo layout spacing is good expo layout spacing. No reason to have shitty spacing just to avoid some similarities with some other random map. Just so happens both this map and rov do a decent job at making good use of all the map's space (except rov is hurt by wasting space with water, and it can't use that space properly since it lacked the nightmarjoo gate or some equivalent feature).
tktkvroom
Joel talks alot :)
Excalibur
Could use better deco. ;O
Nightmarjoo
I agree, but we both suck at twilight decoration.
tktkvroom
idk i just thought there was enuff already so meh
Excalibur
Call up Testbug! :D
Nightmarjoo
lol I want to avoid cheating :(
Nightmarjoo
Hey tk, I figure if the worst they say is that our map resembles one of the best old school (2) maps ever, we did a pretty good job :D
sTY_leZerG-eX
Yeah map probably will play out good, but wont the troy gate crate path issue?
And have u tested theM?
Nightmarjoo
Read my op post.

Yes troy gate can cause pathing issues later on after it's closed, but it should not be a real issue since players will have their 3rd+ base(s) to defend and thus be rallying to.
Trooper
could use testbug
coV
Wouldn't it be better if you widened up the top corner's ramps to make a less path issue?
Nightmarjoo
No issues with it so far.
tktkvroom
Me & Joel did testing on it: pvz tvz
Map holds up GREAT really solid game play, good macro, most of the fighting is on high ground like expected, the bottom NMJ path is kinda tricky but has its benefits
back door @ nat is good pvz for toss to scout zerg tech
Really we had no problems at all, good solid interesting games
Nightmarjoo
small edit:

main and nat formations modified
main choke tiles edited
decoration modified
min onlys moved over a tile
map description changed
modified large dirt ramp tiles
coV
Can any unit go through main? Or just the medium and small?
tktkvroom

all units fit through the egg path
modified by tktkvroom
ProTosS4EveR
gosu use of halluminerals and eggwall *.*
in PvT, what happens if T block his nat and push via NMJgate (you are totally not narcissic at all mjaroo xD) and attacks directly P base?
P will probably see that he is pushing via NMG gate since there is no push in the top part

wanna me for deco?toastbug is afk :>
modified by ProTosS4EveR
Nightmarjoo
I thought you were afk too.

I'm glad you think the nmj gate is gosu, your halucinated minerals were fucking epic and it's a shame to not see stuff like that used more.

I don't think Terran can both adequetely attack and defend at the same time unless he has already won the game. Protoss can just scout out to see whether he should crush the attack or crush terran's nat. The backdoor if used properly should make it hard for terran to defend his nat in such a situation. I think it's likely terran would mine out his own backdoor for vultures.
tktkvroom
still needs mirror matches tested
LasTCursE
Ride of Valkyries 2 ?
EDIT: About the deco what about calling Freakling ? he is god with twilight deco :D

modified by LasTCursE
modified by LasTCursE
ProTosS4EveR

units cant walk there because of the unitboard, all this line is unwalkable......................................
modified by ProTosS4EveR
spinesheath
If ghosts can't get through, your assims probably are about 1 pixel too close. Check out the unit/building sizes pages on Liqupedia.
LasTCursE
lol cool picture p4e xD

EDIT: The Decoration from the replays is different that in the picture and the map.. PP: i like the replay one =] looks cooler xD
modified by LasTCursE
freakling
I guess that ghosts fit through closed gates on Troy is just a funny byeffect ot the fact that they were only tested for Zerglings - which are normally considered the smallest unit (OK, Scarabs... But they are only technically units).
But maybe it was some evil plan to make ghosts usefull for da world domination...

However - it seems to me that the troy gate does not have much effect in this map. The path over the hill is very close and seems to be the shortest one, at least from the picture.

I like that idea with the hallucinated minerals :)

But the mineral block on the island seems a bit superfluent - there is so much buildable space around it to "stop over" a command center and it can be easily mined out by the scout scw - therefore it shoult be at least a 9 value (or rather 16 value) block. And after all it is not even a real island.
tktkvroom
idk y joel said that ghost can fit through the gates cuz they can't i test every single land unit & none fit through.

the gate does have some good use however zvt rines stim through & get to the min only really fast & can be dangerous

Tvp the terran can take the high basicala & kill the gates so the toss has to fight him only up hill & cant use troy gates

as for the mineral block at island it has 20 stacked so it does take awhile for scv to mine it out & probes drones scvs all get in & out of that path really easily so they could spot it pretty fast, also we left alot of room open down there for shit to go down like proxies rax hops that sorta stuff

freakling
I was referring to the gates on Troy, not this map's ones. Anyway, since it is possible to make gates that allow Ultralisks to pass and still block ghosts when destroyed (I guess that's what you made here) I think it is OK. I did quite a lo testing of that stuff a while aog. I am not entirely sure but it can happen that if the Assimilators are to close to each other, when one of them is destroyed DTs (the biggest "medium" unit, as far as I know) cannot pass. I don't know anymore how this coincides with ghost fitting through closed gate though... I think I will test it on this map...

I still think the gate does little. Protoss has to fight Terran uphill. OK... But units could only pass the Assimilators one by one, anyway. So it is not really valuable as flanking space anyways... I do not say that there is no effect at all. But I think it is limited to an absolute minimum.

And I think you should remove the mineral block. It does not provide anything substantial, so it should not be there. Right now it even hurts Zerg and Protoss more than Terran.

Oh and please: Remove those high basilica doodads.

AND: Fix the ramps. If you have not the faintest idea what I am talking about, look out for MorroW'S map "1015" in the database and read my posts where I explain the problem and/or take a closer look at these pictures

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6758/1015rampbugs.jpg

that I made on that map.

I can give you a tamplate of bug free ramps, just PM me and ask for it.

I hope I could help you. That ramp stuff is really tricky...

The doodad in the NW corner is also bugged. Use the basilica doodad instead of the "high basilica" doodad!

Remember rule #1 for twilight mapping: never NEVER EVER use doodads that have something along the lines of "high [...]" in their description (high flagstone doodads are allowed, however).
modified by Freakling
Nightmarjoo
I don't make twilight maps. Why never use high doodads? What's wrong with the NW corner doodad? I haven't tested it.

The island block will not go. "hurts zerg and protoss more than terran" This would be bad if zerg, protoss, and terran, were all on equal footing as far as islands go. As they have been proven through the years to be not, this is not a problem. Islands always favour protoss. This island is easy for zerg to take because zerg has overlords, so the island is not favouring protoss as much. Then, because terran can lift a cc in, or start mining the block out while making a cc and then lift it, however, it's more useful and viable to take for terran. ie there's nothing here aside from the predisposition of islands to favour protoss helping protoss while there are aspects helping zerg and terran, and while I'm not going to declare all these "helps" are equal, they imo atleast help with the balance.

The Troy Gates are significant to gameplay and crucial to the concept. tk placed the assims and I think he just moved them a bit too close in trying to make them "offset" to make it definitely impossible to rebuild them. As the inability for ghosts to pass through when both assims are destroyed is not in any way, shape or form detrimental to gameplay or balance, I don't care. I've yet to see any other bug arise.

Please pm me your ramps, ideally ramps already sized to be copy/pasted over these :D I wasn't aware of any issues with the ramps. I'm not sure where tk got them from, he either copied 1015 or Return of the King though (as I linked him to both).
Freakling
Becaus many high doodads (exept high flagstones and high dirt - somehow I forgot those, sorry) are bugged - they are entirly lowground. This applies to all high basilica doodads including ramps, high sunken rocks ramps, the rock doodads (Though those are mostly unwalkable and thus OK as long as you have no Zerglings cuddling them or something). Only the bottom tiles of the high basilica ramps (were they transition into rocky ground) are medium ground, the rest, which should be high ground, is in fact low ground. Thus one has to use a blend of normal and high basilica ramps to create a functional high basilica ramp. However, no one outside of Korea seems to have figured that out so far or even realized that bug so far... At least all the maps in the Database I checked so far are bugged.
If you copy the ramps from maps as Blue Storm or ROTK directly you have your unbugged ramps (and the high basilica doodads on Blue Storm and ROTK all normal basilica doodads, I think. I still do not understand why they used them at all).
Is there any basilica ramp tamplate on this site? I could not find anything. If not I will create one, if yes I will update it for you.
modified by Freakling
LasTCursE
spinesheath
I found that lowground bug for Outpust ramps (Ice terrain of course) a loooong time ago when I was simply checking how all the location elevation flags work. I only thought it was a single tile on those 2 doodads though...
Good to know, definately something that should be listed in some mapping techniques summary ;)
LasTCursE
"(Ice terrain of course)" ice is your favourite terrain ? xD
modified by LasTCursE
Freakling
@LastCurse: There are no "Outposts" in Twilight...

Elevation flags do not work on whole tiles, by the way. They work on the "subtiles" (which are 16 per tile), the same as the walkability. If a unit touches both higher and lower gound at the same time the highest terrain level gets priority, however. That is why some ramp tiles can cause what I call the "blind Zergling bug".
Bugged tiles are in general a problem for the brood war only terrains. Guess it is because Blizzard released BW in a hurry without meticulous testing and never cared to patch it.

The doodad in the NW corner is a high basilica doodad, thus low ground - the same bug as the ramps.

And Troy gate mechanics have nothing to do with "deplaced" (or "offset", respectively "off grid") placement. To make them unrebuildable one needs to place unwalkable (NOT unbuildable!) tiles underneath the assimilators/Geysers (To get the desired unit pathing one still has to place at least one of them off grid, of course).

And talking about Ice Terrain: It is a similar problem there. All high autpost doodads are identical to the normal outpost doodads. So essentially it is impossible to make any good looking bug free high oupost ramps.
modified by Freakling
ProTosS4EveR
freakling said
"@LastCurse: There are no "Outposts" in Twilight..."
gosh, think, he is talking about basilica........
modified by ProTosS4EveR
Nightmarjoo
Yeah stuff like this is outside of my mapping specialty.

There's two twilight ramp things, both on the second page.
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=2506
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=1623

Spinesheath, any chance of your mapping tool that can identify the height of tiles ever coming out? I believe I recall hearing something about something like that lol.
Freakling
@ProTosS4EveR: I know he is not ;) L2RBT, please.
Freakling
I just realized that korean ramps are i fact horribly bugged. They never got it right. They only tried to fix bugs (or rather kind of counterballance them) by adding even more buggs. Funny. I guess that makes (4)Mystique the only bug free map with basilica ramps ever created... I am so good ;P
Now I definitely need to update the teplate...

EDIT:
=====
So - here you are:

http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=2506
modified by Freakling
tktkvroom
i honestly see nothing wrong with our ramps every part of them were walkable
Freakling
And I honestly get the impression that you neither read what I wrote nor what LastCurse posted nor looked at any of the pictures poth of us provided as help for you.

LastCurse proves that there ARE unwalkable spots (and there are actually more than just those on the Screenshot)

And my posts were about a completely different issue. You should really take a closer look at the Screenshots from 1015. Then you should emidiately know what is wrong.
Nightmarjoo
Yeah tk's a bit slow sometimes, thanks Freakling.
tktkvroom
shut up noob
LasTCursE
where did i said that there is outpost in twilight ? xd lol

@LastCurse: There are no "Outposts" in Twilight..."
EDIT: About the ramps..

modified by LasTCursE
Freakling
>>where did i said that there is outpost in twilight ? xd lol

>>@LastCurse: There are no "Outposts" in Twilight..."

:) That's pretty funny. Of course you did not. :)
Trooper
could use a ramp pack like that
coV
Oh damn where can I get that?
LasTCursE
This is the whole list i have

[Ash] All ramps
[Ash] Bridges
[Ash] Ramps
[Ash] Ramps 90 Degree
[Badlands Colors]
[Badlands] All Ramps
[Badlands] Normal Ramps
[Badlands] Normal Ramps (desti)
[Badlands] Structure ramps
[Big Pallete Jungle]
[Installation] Normal Ramps
[Jungle] All Ramps
[Jungle] All Ramps [Korean]
[Jungle] NEW Normal ramps
[Jungle] Normal Ramps [Korean]
[Jungle] Temple Wall 60 Degree
[Pallete Ash]
[Pallete Badlands]
[Pallete Jungle]
[Pallete Space]
[Space] All Ramps
[Space] Low Platform 60 Degree
[Space] Morrow ramps
[Badlands] Buildings
[Desert] All Ramps
[Desert] All Ramps NEW
[Desert] Bridges
[Desert] Normal Ramps [Korean]
[Desert] Ramps
[Desert] SandyPit Ramps
[Ice] Bridges 90 degree
[Ice] Mixed Ramps
[Ice] Mud Ramps
[Ice] Normal Ramps
[Ice] Normal ramps 45 degree
[Ice] Outpost Ramps
[Ice] Ramps
[Ice] Snow Ramps
[Pallete Desert]
[Pallete Ice]
[Pallete Twilight]
[Twilight] Basillica 45 degree
[Twilight] Basillica Ramps
[Twilight] Bridges
[Twilight] Bridges 90 degree
[Twilight] Mixed Ramps
[Twilight] Normal Ramps
[Twilight] Normal ramps 90 Degree
[Twilight] Ramp Database
[Twilight] Sunken Ground 60 degree
[Twilight] Sunken Ground Ramps
+Some other ;]
modified by LasTCursE
coV
Lol why aren't they posted here?
Trooper
can i have those?
sTY_leZerG-eX
Yeah post all that stuff, it sounds awesome.
ProTosS4EveR
ash bridges :D
LasTCursE
yeah xD
LasTCursE
uploaded the ash bridges
sTY_leZerG-eX
Up load everything :D
but personal favorite:
[Ice] Bridges 90 degree
[Ice] Mixed Ramps
[Ice] Mud Ramps
[Ice] Normal Ramps
[Ice] Normal ramps 45 degree
[Ice] Outpost Ramps
[Ice] Ramps
[Ice] Snow Ramps
[Pallete Ice]
[Pallete Twilight]
modified by sTY_leZerG-eX
LasTCursE
i have an idea. i upload 1 ramp map at a weak and you make a Poll and everybody votes witch one to be ^^ it will be fun
=]
modified by LasTCursE
modified by LasTCursE
coV
Or you can tell us where we can download this stuff :D
tktkvroom
this has alot to do with the map....
ProTosS4EveR
tk, make ash bridges in this map :)
tktkvroom
lol >.< NO!!!
use them for a comstat block :P
coV
Can you guys help me again?
There is this map I wanted to look at, it's pretty neat, but it's protected. I just wanted to look at it close-up to see the details. I used OSMAP2 and I opened it, Unprotected it, but the saving part is what didn't work. I saved it into a different name but it doesn't work. I would appreciate it if you helped me.

Or another option is if there is another program for unprotecting maps. Ones that work and is not outdated.
Thanks!
LasTCursE
Only Excalibur and i have that kinda program.. he won't give it to you so upload the map and ask him to open it for you ;)
Freakling
Lol, you are funny, LastCurse...
ProTosS4EveR
lastcurse thinks that he is the chosen one for the program, a lot of ppl in this site, has it...
sTY_leZerG-eX
Wood that be OSMAP2 or UU2?
Whats the deal here with mappers not helping each other out?
coV
Lol, OSMAP2, everything worked except when I saved it into the SC/maps/. So what do I do...
modified by coV
tktkvroom
this map thread has nothing to do with the map, there is an offtopic area for this stuff
Trooper
map looks nice, now about those ramps! j/k
tktkvroom
I already fixed the unwalkable spots on the ramps joel just needs to upload it
sTY_leZerG-eX
Lol trooper
LasTCursE
"ProTosS4EveR
lastcurse thinks that he is the chosen one for the program,"

NTER THE Matrix you bitches :o Prepare to feal the power of NEO xD
modified by LasTCursE
tktkvroom
finaly up upload it noob
-ramps are fixed
freakling
Sorry for disappointing you, but they are not.

You fixed/removed the doodads, but unfortunately forgot that one in the upper left corner... That one should be a "normal" basilica doodad.

What did you fix about the ramps? I guess it is only the unbuildable spots, right?
If not, which (or whose) ramps did you use to copy paste them in this time?
I would recomment you to read my other posts again. All the information you need is in there. I write all that down another time.
Nightmarjoo
Freakling can you just download the map and fix it yourself, and I add your name to map?
tktkvroom
funny
tktkvroom
got a few reps for the map last night, ppl really seem to like the map. Gunna try to get more reps soon
tktkvroom
updated!!
-all bascilla ramps changed to freaklings

-top left basicalla doodad changed to basicalla doodad

there were some doodads that got cut that i noticed in games so i fixed those too

me & nightmar are gunna be doing testing on map tonight it would be much appreciated if ne one would come & help us test it, & if u need ne help or testing on ur map i'll test it with u.

ICCup accounts:
Chopper]i[ ---TkTkVrooM
iCafe.Lyra ---Nightmarjoo

just msg us thank you :]
tktkvroom
map is also now in final version
freakling
I fixed a bug with the northern middle expo and reuploaded it. Three of the mineral patches were placed for p1 and did not show up in game.
tktkvroom
oh yea we already noticed that lol we fixed it our selves but joel never uploaded it lol thanks
LasTCursE
clouds got alot of comments man xD :)
tktkvroom
yeah lol

u should upload Kanon >.< u got like 50 reps for that map
tktkvroom
got alot of reps uploaded, map has alot of testing & has turned out really good
tktkvroom
got alot of testing in now, map proves to be great :D B, C players were playign it all liked it
Freakling
Terran can wall in ling tight at both nat chokes. You should change that.
tktkvroom
this is a good thing
Freakling
But it requires only 1 rax, 1 depot. That's a bit too safe, I think.

It also seems like you have a problem with one of the mineral patches at the eastern mineral only expansion, that one that is halfway on the cliff, to be precise. It does not mine properly - i.e. not at all, if one does not manually orders workers to do so.

You should also add a scarab hole to the western natural mineral block since the eastern on already has one.
Nightmarjoo
Well Freakling that's how Heartbreak Ridge is.

I don't understand your scarab hole thing. The nats have the same formation.
Freakling
I am pretty sure we talk about totally different things.

By /Nat/ Choke I mean the choke leading from the Nat to the rest of the map and not the choke between nat and main, which would be the /main/ choke in my terminology.
The /main"/ choke being 1 rax, 1 depot wallable (Zealot tight and possibly ling tight) is perfectly okay, in fact it is even desireble for all modern maps.
The /nat/ choke however should not be easily wallable in and definitely not ling tight by rax, depot, because that would allow Terran to counter virtually an Zerg build with a perfectly save 13/14/15 CC. And there is all kind of stuff in current pro maps to eliminate that possibility.

Heartbreak ridge has a normal 8 tile wide nat choke, that requires at least 4 structures to wall in, thus it is effectively unwalable.

And I am not talking about scarab holes in the Nat formations but about "pure" scarab holes (i.e. holes so small only scarrabs could pass) at your mineral blocks at the backdoor (I refer to (4)Holy world and (3) Outsider where you can find this done at the 3rd gas expos). One has it, the other has not, which can lead to imballanced if a toss tries to defend or attack that choke with a reaver.

EDIT: I know that you allready know most of this, so do not mistake this as a "lecture" but as a detailled correction of my previously inaccurate annotation.
modified by Freakling
tktkvroom
nats choke needs 2 supp & 1 rax to wall tested already

both mineral blocks scarabs go through, seen it in multiple games

as for the min only on right side u are right, but go figure ding dong joel put it there wouldn't of been a problem if i had done it ;] so now i have to fix this

as for the other things, thats why i have so many reps uploaded cuz i have seen almost every thing on this map tested. That is how map become good by getting lots of testing in on it.......which i see about 0 reps uploaded for almost all the maps in motm7 comp. So its really hard to believe ne testing got done on ne of the maps

only map i know got tested were romance cuz me & lezerg played it & Outboxer cuz i played 2 games on it & it proved to not have good gameplay yet ppl are still voting so much for it cuz, hey its a korean map & has a good picture, right on.

Freakling
To clarify this: I played on Cloud and kinda liked it (which is rare with 2 player maps). But: I am right about the wallin and the scarab hole. I checked it in the editor and tested it ingame (though that is generally not even required because SCM draft has proven to be 100% accurate on tile properties other than buildability for some tiles)
I can give you screenshots, if you want.
I have become really good in debugging maps, so you should trust me on this.
tktkvroom
i told u the reaver hole works on both sides
Freakling
I told it does not.
Think about it.
Test it.
Decide yourself...
tktkvroom
........i have tested it......
do u not see all the reps??
a zerg had a hatchery by the mineral block on the nat side & a toss used a reaver on the back side & scarabs got through

i wouldn't say it works unless i tested it
Freakling
I am really beginning to wonder why I invest all this time in your map...
You want irrefutable proof?
Look!
It's in the replay.

I just hope you believe me about the nat chokes, I do not want to make a replay about that...
After all: If you use SCMDraft (which I am sure you do) you can check all this in the editor, you do not even need to find players to test it.
Nightmarjoo
Ok I see the nat choke's problem, I'll place a tile forcing rax/2depot walling.

I don't understand the scarab problem at all.
Nightmarjoo
Watched rep, scarab problem is my fault. The problem lies in that the east nat backdoor min block is 1 tile lower and so the doodad there doesn't make a scarab-tight wall.
Nightmarjoo
I doubt you and tk were talking about the same thing.
freakling
Well. I also have the feeling that we have a communication problem. I just cannot figure out, why :( Are my posts that unclear?
Nightmarjoo
Generally no. But I didn't think scarabs could go through the nat backdoor min wall at all, so I didn't understand what you were saying until I watched the rep.

Freakling I'm sure this must be frustrating, but thanks for helping us find stupid bugs like that. A lot of these things don't appear in an average test game so they're hard to find, and it's hard to look at your own map. It's easy to find errors when you're looking for them, but who wants to find errors in their own map?
freakling
I know exaytly what you are talking about ;)

Anyway. Many cannot at all or only by very lucky coincidence be dicovered in test games were players hardly know the map, certainly not to a degree were bugabusing is likely.

That's why I pointed out that it is very important and time saving to check those things in SCMDraft.
Just activate unit collision boxes, select a unit and check all chokes for holes, place different wallins and look which units would fit through etc.

Unfortunately some things like terrain hights and effects on pathing can only be tested the hard way - ingame. I normally run Zerglings and Dragoons over critical areas to test such things. It's done really quickly.

I think both chokes should have scarab holes, however. It is just a nice thing to have and helps protoss gameplay without any unwanted byeffects.
Freakling
Just watch replay "me vs. dummy AI" and this:
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/8074/zerglingtightwallinsat2.jpg
tktkvroom
i cant watch dl reps/maps on this computer wont get into it lol but me & joel are gunna fix the problem with the mineral block, will be uploaded in a bit
Nightmarjoo
All known bugs fixed.
tktkvroom
except those little white bugs crawling around in ur bush :X
tktkvroom
few changes in doodads & tiles that looked bad
few more reps from jumper]i[ the guy from tl.net that smashed G5 lol
sTY_leZerG-eX
Lol holy shit so many ..... so many

Good map ;)

Take it easy TK!
tktkvroom
lots of testing ;]
LarJarsE
BACK TO THE MAP:

Gas problem on right's natural expo.
Starparty
it doesnt matter significantly much if the nodes are placed differently in the expansions. The gas issue is just an issue for the first ~5 minutes of the game. its ok aslong as u get the mains right
tktkvroom
obs & melee didn't match, melee was up to date but obs wasn't so they are both the same map now
ILoveTMA
This map is really really pro! I love the worker hop at the back door, thats pimp lol
XeLious
This post is not displayed due to its content
Aristocrat
What is this ride of valkyries clone? O.o
neobowman
Oh god, we've already had this discussion.
jackets
This post is not displayed due to its content
ProTosS4EveR
again a hacker/bot? :[
Kinosjourney
It's a spambot.


  
7
Replays


--iCafe.Lyra vs Chopper]i[(1on1, 1.16)
--Lukewarm vs Chopper]i[(1on1, 1.16)
--iCafe.Lyra vs Chopper]i[(1on1, 1.16)
--iCafe.Lyra vs Chopper]i[(1on1, 1.16)
--iCafe.Lyra vs Lukewarm(1on1, 1.16)
--Chopper]i[ vs JoyBox8333(1on1, 1.15)
--SavanT vs Cosi(1on1, 1.15)
--WindWalkeR vs Cosi(1on1, 1.15)
--StaR)Yu vs aCt..FrostY(1on1, 1.15)
--Chopper]i[ vs ForEveR[Ete](1on1, 1.15)
--uPrO)ExceLLo( vs Curtailed(1on1, 1.15)
--Chopper]i[ vs Akuji1992(1on1, 1.15)
--uPrO)ExceLLo( vs MiniMagic(1on1, 1.15)
--SNaKeZ vs MiniMagic(1on1, 1.15)
--uPrO)ExceLLo( vs MiniMagic(1on1, 1.15)
--sTsB.Pariah vs Mestric(1on1, 1.15)
--D4.MoMaN- vs sTsB.Pariah(1on1, 1.15)
--[[4.44]] vs mestric(1on1, 1.15)
--Chopper]i[ vs mestric(1on1, 1.15)
--[[4.44]] vs mG.Lopto(1on1, 1.15)
--[[4.44]] vs mG.Lopto(1on1, 1.15)
--[[4.44]] vs rs.exalted(1on1, 1.15)
--[[4.44]] vs KoOpa(1on1, 1.15)
--rs.exalted vs iajtls(1on1, 1.15)
--NeT.Organ vs mG.Lopto(1on1, 1.15)
--Choigang vs SteveGerrard(1on1, 1.15)
--mG.Lapto vs SteveGerrard(1on1, 1.15)
--[SofSC]Stalker vs IPS.Radio(1on1, 1.15)
--[Sg]..Sun vs BarbyZerg(1on1, 1.15)
--Chopper]i[ vs CtS-Guacho(1on1, 1.15)
--Mestric vs HellScream(1on1, 1.15)
--MiniMagic vs HellScream(1on1, 1.15)
--T[h]e_G[ae]M vs Mestric(1on1, 1.15)
--me vs dummy AI(other, 1.16)
--Jumper]eX[ vs ii-MaGiC(1on1, 1.15)
--Jumper]eX[ vs ii-MaGiC(1on1, 1.15)
--Jumper]eX[ vs ii-MaGiC(1on1, 1.15)
--AoS]aDiCt3d- vs iO.o)(1on1, 1.15)

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