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Last update for (4)Final Judgement 0.41 : 2020, 04, 24 13:53
mapIDMapname (comments)map sizeAuthorRatingTypeplay type
5218 (4)Final Judgement 0.41 128*128StarV0.2betaground

The map has been rated 21 times and got a total of 5 points
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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


Freakling
Some good ideas, but:

  • Zerg seems pretty srewed, you cannot really defend the main choke from the nat and 2-Hatch seems outright impossible
  • rusing distances seem rather on the short side, given the natural setup and straight-forward open middle
  • All those doodads in the middle probably make pathfinding more awkward than it should be
  • Assimilator Gates can only really be properly set up with the right gate on top, due to the idiosyncrasies of buildability for Geysers (do you actually fully understand how this works?)
  • All the bases in the clusters at 12/6 are tankable (and genrally cliffable) from each other, they are also predestined to be heavy turtle areas
  • Likewise the double bases at 3/9 are set up in way that only suggests one expansion.


I could actually see this being quite interesting in a 2v2, but otherwise you should
  • change the natiral setup, so that it allows 2_Hatching and maximizes rushing distances in close poitions
  • redesign the middle to increase rushing distances and reallocate some space to other parts of the map, that would actually profit from that
  • thin out the expansion clusters at 12/6 and improve the spacing
  • make the 3/9 bases either just one expo or two with one ramp each and one (properly set up) Assimilator gate in between
Eywa-
Well, the intention of the main/natural/mineral only formation is to make something that resembles Judgement Day: http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=3842

That map is like... Opposite of normal, so Z>T=P>Z which is what I was trying to pull from it (then attempt to balance), but you're right, it seems like 2h is impossible on this set up...

I agree re: top 12/6/3/9... I'm still mulling over how to fix it, I think I'm just going to pull out the low ground expand at 12&6... Unsure.
Eywa-
Though, in the current set up, the Zerg can 2h by taking the gas bases at 12/6 instead of their natural... I actually think Zerg would be more likely to 3h on this map though because they could 3 hatch directly at their 3rd gas if they're going muta
Freakling
Judgement Day works very differently though, the layout is more in the vain of Arkadia. the point is that by 3 Hatching and taking the forward mineral base you get 3 bases for almost free. On this map you need to 3 Hatch to defend your natural, but without getting the extra base. A forward mineral only would be an intersting feature in the current aggressive 2 Hatch Muta focused ZvT meat though.
Also take note how the whole layout, middle design and natural setup, of Judegement Day painstakingly takes care of making rush distances as long and indirect as possible.

Sneaky backdoor 2 Hatch for Zerg would still require that they be able to defend their main choke which I don't thin they can.
Eywa-
I've heavily modified some of the concepts on this map, the main thing I wanted to work around was the safe main - nat - mineral only...

So, I consolidated all of the expansions at 12, 3, 6 & 9.

I added features to increase the nat 2 nat rush distance.

I added a secondary path between the natural & the main, and I blocked the original path. This will make it possible for Zerg to defend, but will still allow the secondary entrance to be mined out for better unit circulation.

By default, with these changes, the center got smaller.
Eywa-
I have not done any bug testing since the latest changes, I'm sure there's a bunch to fix still. I know for a fact the ramps are broken at the moment (at least, some of them are).
Freakling
I got a distinct feeling that you are just copying the centre of Judegement Day now…
Those mineral walls at the main entrance seem bound to causing all kinds of annoying pathfinding issues.
12/6 still seem awkward, if not more so than before. I think you should figure out what your actually key idea here is gonna be and work backwards from there to find a more feasible concept than just applying band-aids over band-aids.
Eywa-
The concepts for the middle are the same as Judgement day, but the actual execution / placement is different. I'm still thinking about the 12 & 6 right... I'm not really sure on what I want to do with those...

I don't really agree with the bandaid comment as I am fundamentally changing how the map works everytime I'm editing it, it's not simply applying quick fixes, I am playing around with map features to see what works and trying to play through it to see.
JungleTerrain
StarV = Eywa?
JungleTerrain
From experience I can say that if you are making big fundamental changes every time you edit the map then you either did not have a good concept in the beginning and you don't know how to plan a map, you have bad execution or you simply just need to pick 1 concept and stick to it.

I didn't see earlier iterations of the map, but Freak is saying that 12/6 look more awkward than before... all I can say is that they look awkward now. Personally I don't think you are using the vertical space well on the sides of the map. I think you should shift things vertically if that makes sense... this would give you more room to work with for the 12/6 areas. 2 words that you need to keep in mind when designing 12/6: tank range.

The middle looks pretty boring, and I don't like the movement of the sides and how they interact with the middle. I kinda see it like a big X and I feel like it should be a circular path that integrates 12/3/6/9 better. I don't even know if I'm making sense here, it would probably be better if I used pictures to show what I mean but I can't be bothered.

Idk what to think about the nats but they are very important. I think the success of the rest of the map in terms of execution will stem from your space management and positional balance around the nat areas. They have to feel comfortable and safe for all 3 races. I know I'm being vague just please put up with me XD
Eywa-
I agree with that Jungle Terrain, the map has had a lot of moving parts and that is primarily because the initial plan didn't really work and I'm trying to recover the important parts of the map and turn it into something different. My argument is that based on the fundamental element I decided to keep, I'm trying to re-work the map as a whole.

I'm thinking for the 12/6 to go with something mroe like Andromeda / Empire of the sun where they are island expansions, I don't see a good way of connecting them with the rest of the map and it kind of works with what I'm trying to do here.

I get what you're saying @Jungleterrain, you're saying that the 3 & 9 kind of offer an alternate path, but not really, leading everything to funnel through the center rather than 2 or 3 different lanes.
Freakling
If I may suggest something: I would focus on figuring out a definite concept and layout for the main/nat/whatever additional easy base layout first, as that seems to be the core idea for you here. Once you have that, everything else will probably fall in place (or you can then work it out from there).
modified by Freakling
Eywa-
Yeah, I agree, I'm working around the concept of safe mineral only, that is the main idea I want to work with, I'm thinking an island 6/12 is the best way to incorporate that terrain as part of the map... I need to somehow make 2 or 3 lanes down the center while having safe 3rd gas options.
Eywa-
Oh, that (Island) is also true because I like the idea of having the mineral only potentially exposed as a second entrance to the main in the midgame. I'm not sure if this is really a required component of the map, so I might give up on this idea.
Eywa-
Ok, so I've looked over many pro maps to see how they handle space (though I can't say all pro maps are particularly good)...

For the 12 & 6, I settled on Island Expansions, because I figured the safe 3 base encouraged macro games, so why not double down on that?

I brought back the mineral only cliff a little bit because there lacked a certain flow between the natural expansion and the center of the map.

I increased the cliff distance a bit further out to increase vertical rush timings (yet to measure exactly)... It looks like the distance is acceptable at a glance.

I think Horizontal distance is fine as is, but if not, I can just hide the proxy location a bit more with some cliff cover or something.

For the center I went with somewhat of a mishmash between FS & Ground Zero, I like the large ring of unbuildable terrain as it reduces the effectiveness of Terran 2 base options which I think is fine, because they can basically take 4 base, 3 gas for free.

And then I just wanted 3 & 9 to present additional options to players without handicapping a large chunk of the map.

I still have lots of testing to do, this is basically a new map, I just decided to focus hard on the feature that I wanted, which lead into the "macro map" style, so that's how I came to the remainder of the conclusions.
Eywa-
Nat to Nat (from the edge of the natural) is 25 seconds in both vertical and horizontal spawns.
JungleTerrain
Yea this is really different from before. Definitely more standard now, I think it should play much more predictably which could be a good or a bad thing depending on how you look at it.

I think what I envisioned before was a more standard middle since there was so much experimental stuff going on at the sides. Now the map seems a bit bland since the middle and the sides are more what you would expect from a "standard" map.

I might make the ramp leading to the mineral only in the base a normal sized ramp or something simply narrower than what it currently is. It allows for a possible choke point for a player to play around when harassing. As it is now I think the mineral only is a bit safe. Heck, I might even switch the position of the minerals to the opposite side so they are overlooking the cliff and are vulnerable from harass down below. This would give P and Z opportunities to stop the base from mining or harass workers if the defending player doesn't secure the space outside of their natural, giving that area more strategic importance.
Eywa-
I like the idea for the smaller ramp, I'm not 100% sure about the positioning of the minerals.

The ramp was actually large because there was previously a ramp leading into the center, but I removed that over pathfinding concerns & a bit too many ideas playing out at once.
Freakling
Basically what jungle said. I find the mineral only being just a dead end a bit boring. In addition to that they overlook the natural choke, so they are a great spot for Terrans to put some tanks to make the naturals pretty nigh invulnerable.
What's the point of that Warpgate in the middle? Centre expansions are already hard enough to take, I see no reason why putting anything there to delay it would be anything more but a nuisance.
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