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Comments:   GMCS (0 elements)


LGI
I think pathfinding is good, i've made some tests with lings everywhere, and everything was fine, i hope they aren't any problems in future. On the bottom two FE, i test the tank drop zones in Star Edit, and i couldn't place tanks there, so they are fine too.

Anyway this is what i've made, but i still feel that i am missing something... Damn it...
sp
I think its mabye a bit too similar to grapes of wrath in the looks :P
LGI
The Overall look is the same, in game it's not... Anyway the idea was to be a little like grapes of wrath, because friends of mine beg me to make a similer map with normal expands and mains...
LGI
And this map is more open, then GoW, also it will be very hard for terran... In the next 20 minutes i will upload a 4 player FFA replay.
--v mOsQ
P >>>> T
Beatiful imbalance map
Listoric
First of all, give reasons, no state bullshit.

Next thing is, that i really prefer this one over GoW.

It's awesome!

The only thing i miss are these shiny doodads on the crevices, but i just would add some. Not as many as you already got everywhere.

Also the two points (GMCS) are a bit empty, maybe add some water there, to help airunits move around the map a bit.

T still got a push way over the gas expansion in the center which is very interesting in my eyes. Really really interesting map. I love it. It's like a way better GoW version.
Listoric
But yes, it is a Pish map, very good. There are quite few of them, and P has good chances here, not imbalanced, but favoured. I really like it!
--v mOsQ
Almost all your maps are similar. Make at last something new, instead of one more stupid map-clon.
panschk
It is right that the map looks like P>T. It would not be enough, but making more of the middle buildable would be a good start.
--v mOsQ
"more of the middle buildable"
lol gosu balance skill
TT mb carriers limit ?
LGI
I accept the suggestions, but i want to keep the 3 and 9 o'clock doodads. Somehow with water will look very standart, and you know all my maps, that i try to add something "unstandart" to them :) .

Anyway if it's a must i will replace the doodads with water...

FOR THE PEOPLE :D
Spitfire
LGI, nice work.
The two things missing are: buildable center and more tight center, something like on Nostalgia but wider.
Listoric
As said, just to see how it would look like it would be really interesting. But i know your love for that kind of decoration ;)
hefty
Problem is that this is luna with even more flanking space. Even the exps are more open. I agree that this map is very hard on terran, and is most likely z>p as well.
hefty
Have to add.

Tvp is probably fair if both players start top or bottom. But getting from top to bottom, or vice versa, will be hard, not to mention cross positions!
decaf
I like this way more than GoW, kinda has a luna combined with GoW feel and i like it more. How does left top vs top right or bottom right vs bottom left play out? does the high land get in the way?
decaf
btw good job with the doodads :)
flothefreak
"kinda has a luna combined with GoW feel"

that was EXACTLY was I thought^^
panschk[FP]
Besides LGI's very own decoration style (btw I just love it when ppl develop an unique style for mapping), I don't see much in common with GoW.

LGI, give terran some love on this :]
Listoric
"LGI, give terran some love on this :]"

yeah, do so, i'm waiting for an update!
LGI
Ok, so i mix a little your all suggestions.

Update:

-Add doodads to the unbuildable terrain (i've just forgot them in the first time :) )

-Add 2 walls that will make the 9 and 3 o'clock expos more safe, and easyer to protect.

-Delete some cliffs in the top middle and bottom middle so there is space between all this doodads and this space could be use very good for a terran push. I guess this gives a little advantage. And the tanks won't be so powerfull for range units, because there is vision and the dmg is normal for all units.

-Now there is some buildable space. I add some near the new center cliffs and all around both center expands.

-I fix some things in the semetry, they were not right, now they are.

And i want to ask you something. Do you feel some DARK POWER in this map? I try to make most of my maps DARK, SPOOKY AND SCARY!
Listoric
Have you looked at the GMCS? You made exactly what i wrote you shouldnt do ^^ because at is it now, it seems as it is totally in the way from top to bottom. Also some more buidlable ground would help terran there a lot.

Still i like the update. What do others think?
LGI
I will fix pathfinding between top and bottom, with small walls that will start from mains to center, but later, right now i don't have time :)
flothefreak
and be sure that there is no dropspace between the doodads on 3h/9h
LGI
There is on purpuse, there is also space in the ROCK doodads next to the first gas expand of each player. This was the story of this map, i want it to make drop zones for terran, but not on cliffs or sunk ground or shits like this, thats why i make the doodad drop zone idea that i had in mind :) . The spots are not that much.

The only thing that i found to be fixed in doodads is at the bottom middle cliffs. There is one tiny hole that lings can pass, but i will fix this too.
flothefreak
it will be HELL annoying then :<
you'll have to keep scourges there all the time, or as toss, a scout + observer 8[
Listoric
Ow, good point. Drops should be impossible at 3 and 9, especially because of Terran Tanks. you can't defend a handfull of dropholes. better make it undroppable/water then.
Listoric
Dropholes at the center expansions as well as on the naturals are ok though.
LGI
Don't get all this wrong. Even if there is no space in the tank drop zone to drop other unit, you will be able to kill it with a ground range unit. I think already about this. Thats why i make so much space behind the minerals, so there will be space for cannons, sunks and range units if it's needed. I don't even understand why flo, says that obz will be needed. Hello, you have vision trought doodads ok?

Now i fix the pathfinding between bottom and top locations. I also fix the problem with the doodads that i say earlyer. So check it out now as it is. I haven't made any more buildable space, because i am starting to wonder where shoud be the best spot to do that, mayby some suggestions?

While i am waitng your comments i will check where , and how many are the tank drop zones in the doodads field.
flothefreak
firstly, don't upload the kin dzadza-picture^^

secondly, you DO need obs, cuz if not terran will rape any airdefence (scouts probably) whcih shall deny drop. cloaked 1 wraith > scout without obs :(
LGI
Ops, picture fixed :)

Oh, come on... 90% of the good protoss are going for obz, not couse clocked write... Mines mostly in PvT MU.

Anyway, i check the drop zones. They are 3 tanks on the top spot that cannot be reached with a normal range unit like ranged hidra or ranged dragoon, or sunk or cannon, and 2 tanks at the bottom spot. So i will fix this at both expands (i hope i can, otherwise i will have to make water :( )

Thx, for waking me up about all those doodads :)
flothefreak
well the obs is needed there permanently, but this is not that bad I think, you need one on every cliff / shuttle fly-by-route anyway. I just wanted to mention it

you can erase those dropspots if you use single tiles of "tileset indexed"
LGI
Once i try to work that way, but no sucsess in opening with original Star Edit. So i rearlu use other editors then the original.

What can i say... i am newb in StarForge and SCMDraft :)
flothefreak
if you know a little trick, you can make it SE-compatible :)
LGI
Share the trick pleace :D . Use ICQ if you want, but i need it! I try to re-decorate but... There is always some space between doodads. I can't fix it... Water is the only solution that i can make... But i like the doodads prety much so i really want to keep them :) .

Ok, if you have time, msg me in ICQ, but right now i am off to a party, and i will be back here in 2:00 CET i guess... i still don't know how long i will be there :) . Or this just can stay for tommorow.

See ya!
Listoric
Don't worry about the buildable space. I think it's good now as it is. you forged the top to bottom path now and with that, you can easily build towers near the highground wall and the center gas expansions. it's good as it is.
LGI-
Now i am a bit busy these days, so i can hardly comment everything, and i see that they are many things to comment even if i want. Soon i will have time i hope.

So i write here, because i want to make the final tuch of this map and take part in the MotW competition this week.

So with some tests and some discusion with flothefreak in ICQ, we come to this that if i want to keep the decoration at 9 and 3 o'clock i should fill all the holes with just parts of other doodads like rocks or something (just like flothefreak suggest, make and send me updated map) but it needs some more rocks to complete this, and i still can't uderstand what wrong am i doing in SCMDraft, that makes the doodads that i make crash in StarEdit. So if i want to keep the decoration i will have ask flothefreak again to finish those rocks, just few of them.

The other option is to make water behind the expands (wich Listoric suggest, and think that it would be better). So i could do this easy as soon as i get home (this evening) and give you a picture to tell me what most of you like more.

In other words i am asking you all what do you want doodads, or water.

If you want doodads i don't know what to do, because it's not very fair to use flothefreak skills on this :), so i this map might late untill i understand what i am missing in those editors...

If you want water it will be easy.

Just like SP says before, somewhere in bwmn

"We are making maps to be liked from the people, not for us"

So you deside...
flothefreak
I'd prefer water actually
the doodad idea is a nice thing, but it will cause too much trouble, and even filling those holes correctly _can_ cause error messages in SE. I still have not figured out why exactly
Listoric
I also prefer water.
decaf
It'd be better with water. Also i recommend moving the gas at naturals. Check the GMCS to see what i mean
LGI
Update:

W A T E R :D

@decaf, now i really want to ask you why you want gas there?

a) To be more safe!
b) To be infront of each ramp and just anoy players when passing trough there, and the space infront of ramps to be small, and in 2v2 games, it would be more gay even! Because more army!

Think about what answer you will give to me. Sorry but i am pissed with this! I hate it! Just like Listoric hates RED color here in words, and just like Starparty hates crap tileset with ramps espacialy... i am sick of watching really good maps, with stupid gas placement.

P.S. I am not pissed to decaf, i just hate this gas placement :)

So love you all, thx :D
Listoric
True, i wouldn't change the gas. :)
Listoric
Map looks great btw.
flothefreak
yap, seconded lis in both points

just think of the possibility for a protoss to kick a well sunken-defended natural's gas with goons from outside!
I get wet when thinking of this ;D
LGI
?

So?

I mean look at EVERY MAP, dragoon can do this everwhere...

His army comes, he attacks, you kick him back?!

It has to be dynamic and intresting right?
flo
that was meant positive, lgi^^

but on other maps, even if the gas is kinda exposed, the sunken line is mostly in front of the extractor.
on this map now, you still can harass which I like.
cuz playing vs a quite-lot-of-sunks-zerg in 2on2 is not this funny ;D
Listoric
yeah, flo just said, if he thinks of goons kicking the gas, he get all wet in his pants, hrhrhr ^^

true :P ^^

For Aiur!!
decaf
Okay, your choice, not mine. Just my preference as a zerg user, i like my gas safe.
Starparty
yea, i hate it too when u cant defend the gas good, like on diamond valley, that reallu sux
Starparty
this is betetr than diamnod valley thouigh.. have no problems with gas here
LGI
I think it's Final version now. So i add obz version too.
sp
personally id like 12 and 6 as gas island and a few doodads replaced with a bit of terrain instead..
LGI
From the start i tought about making them islands. But then i see that i won't find a good locations for the min only expands. I can make them, but they were going to be too "closed". Wich is not good for my taste. So now the 6,12,9,3 o'clock expands are playing the role as min only for each player. Also if i make 12 and 6 o'clock air expands, somehow the map will have this "standart" look and rules as the other maps. Wich is not that bad, because more people might like it, dunno... Anywya if you have something bigger in mind, place share it with more then 2 rows txt. I think that i catch some toughts in your mind, but i am not sure, and i want to read it...

About the doodads. I think that you are talking about the center 2 expands doodads behind minerals, yes? If yes, i could delete them and make little water on the doodads placement. Other terrains as sunk ground won't work mostly for the "grey color" it will destroy the look of the map :) . And about High Dirt, i also don't want to make it, because the vision will be lost, and this will make the center tigher... And i want it open :)
inept
make 12 and 6 have gas, but fewer mineral blocks, so the players will have to decide if they need minerals, or gas. that would be cool :)

and *maybe* trash the gas in the middle expos
LGI
First in middle game, most of the players are needing gas... And second, i don't want to give easy gas. Easy gas -> Macro Game -> Gameplay like most of the maps...

Imo, the expands won't be balanced for 2v2 games if i put gas at 12 and 6 o'clock.
inept
i just hate having ratios of like 700 minerals to 100 gas late-mid game :/ annoys me like im having sucky macro or something :P
LGI
Cntrl+F5 next time you watch the picture... I fix some mistakes and make it more floathing in the decoration at 6 and 9 o'clock. Nothing new.
LGI
Btw intresting rating. Now i know how much this map worth...
flothefreak
come on, what's the matter with you?
why tell you several times about "uh, bad rating"? do you want ppl to pity you and increase rating?

this map is above average, I'd really appreciate it as MOTW, but stop doing with it what scoutWBF was doing with Sleeping Sun...
LGI
When i write this i was pissed, because of... something, and the rating was 3.8 ... Nevermind...
Listoric
nice reps.

I think it was me who said the crevices need decoration, but i think its ot good for movement, maybeyou delete most of them ^^

Except that, great map.

+1 clone map X)
ScoutWBF
" but stop doing with it what scoutWBF was doing with Sleeping Sun..." Yeah better stop liking your maps!Damn could you please stop fucking around about me?

Good map,MotW this time in my oppinion.
LGI
@Listoric, there isn't really problem with pathfinding. You can test yourself. If you find a problem with pathingind because of many doodads, then you are watching some of flo's maps. No offence flo, but you really overloading with doodads sometime, and i had more then 5-10 times having problems in game, because of the doodads...

P.S. Last replay, the terran got a cool style. I wish i could see replays with the same style, and the player is a terran user. Xs-S1av is a Z user actually :)
modified by LGI
Starparty
oh you just dont get it! Mabye if you keep your tiny pigeyes open youd see that the reason he made hokus peakus was because there was a popular demand to have a map like GoW without the double entry. YOu just never do your fucking homework before you post do you?
panschk[FP]
It`s LGI style ;)

They have very similar style, but they do play differently. Hokus peakus plays really smooth, when I played the map for the first time it was like I already knew it for years. It really plays well, and that is why it should be MOTW.
flothefreak
omg, LGI i am really grateful that you just didn't post it in the corressponding mapthread.

am I the only fucking person trying to help others as good as i can?
...
Spitfire
flothefreak: both admin and god
--v.mOsQ: *censored by Spitfire's conscience*
Spitfire
If something is unpleasant for admin, he MUST delete it, because his work - is to keep here a good atmosphere, not fucking gay.
So if you think that your stupid expressions about "childish" Starparty's behaviour or someone else's are true, so you are The Childish One.
Listoric
Ok, all of you, stop it.

Spitfire, i don't want to delete your posts as well as mOsQs. Weather you stop being aggresive towards each other, and back your comments up with facts, or leave it.

Back to topic.

Map is awesome, and a great and totally different feel to GoW, which was a good map already. But i really think the evolution of the GoW concept has ended in a great map. I just love it, really.

Downloading the replays.
Spitfire
Already. They are great ^^
Spitfire
Today is my birthday(+1), so I decided to stop discussing with mOsQ.
LGI
Happy birthday Spitfire :D . I wish you to be map maker N 1 in russia, and one day, to see your map in WCG :D . And love, love, love - this is happyness!
Spitfire
THX LGI <3
flothefreak
happy birthday!
STIMEY D OKGM FISH
terran push to nearby base kill P?
inept
drop reaver asap :[
Listoric
Happy Bday and Graet map, grats.
panschk[FP]
wow, protoss player whine again? Stop it, it really gets annoying :/
JF-Lightning
Too many doodads bad for protoss good for zerg decent for terran. 5 people are too into making the maps look "nice" make the maps balanced or original dont stick annoying doodads in the way that we have to play on.
LGI
Just point me the doodads that its effecting bad on your game or don't cry like a baby for nothing i am not your mom...

To be really honest, i am still thinking of a way to reduse protoss power on this map, so any suggestions are welcome. Ofcourse i could be wrong about this, but i can understand the balance only if there is test playing like in PGT statistic from many games...
inept
wierd some one used my name to post. i never use the :[ face and i have no idea what the post means by drop reaver asap -_-
Listoric
asap - as soon as possible :[

btw, LGI, as said, i would remove "critical" crevice doodads. just move larger army around and you have plenty of stupid doodads imo, especially the ones on crevices.
modified by Listoric
LGI
Well, i remove lots of them, hope that is good now.
LGI
After this map is going to be in the map pack i want to discuss one more thing before the relese...

Do you think that terran is too weak on this map? Do you think that a high ground behind the first natural will be a good idea to give a push to the terran?

Or you have other suggestions?

Or you think it's fine?

My suggestion is to play with terran on this map vs good protoss players.

Right now i am looking maps like Luna, and i am thinking how Terran is going vs Protoss... Looks like terran got hard times, so thats why i was wondering how it's going to be on this one.
NastyMarine
no dude its fine how it is.. no more theorycrafting. go str8 to reps.. and also i'd like to add that tvp is not hard on luna.. turrets are not required for a 't' push(although it is a plus). i have no problem winning on luna tvp.. too much theory crafting. better off right to the reps.. garuntee outta all the maps in the mappack this will prolly be top 3 in best potential. bottom line its a great map.
modified by NastyMarine
flothefreak
I'd love a terran pushing without turrets. i won hundreds of game against this.
NastyMarine
is that a fact?
flothefreak
ya.
zealot-shuttles >> all.
inept
forget shuttles... recall zealots and goons right on the tanks
inept
a protoss on same skill level as terran on luna....the protoss will win a lot more.
LGI
You know what... I will wait for Terrans like Mireille to comment the map after this MotW tourney on gg.net . I am sure he already play the map on this tourney, so i hope he is intrested in giving a comment about the TvP TvZ situation on this map.
flothefreak
well, there are no cliffs but a (quite, not much) open unbuildable center. can't tell you about tvz, but tvp should be hard on this map, and i say this as protoss.
panschk[FP]
Of course it will probably not be every terran player's favorite map. So what? The balancing is good, it does not have to be perfect on every map. Terran players have other maps that favor them.
flothefreak
i don't say it's imbalanced. it is just quite hard. and people most of the time complain about "terran map", so this one as counterweight is perfectly alright.
Listoric
Yeah, think so too. Terran has good chances here.
NastyMarine
so does p dude... u guys theory craft too much lets jus put it in the damn mappack and see what comes from it.. i bet alot of ppl are gonna like this map.. maybe it'll replace luna... jus an idea
LaO-Artanis
Poor LGI.. The 100th post is a spam one! =[
panschk[FP]
T_T
flothefreak
GRRRRR
LGI-
God damn it, why they pick my map to spam...
king of 8 plr maps
I think the map can use alot less doodads, alot authors over kill their maps with them, even though it can make a map look good, it does kill gameplay and make it unbalanced, which will make terran have advantage, and toss a disadvantage. top mid & Bot mid expo needs to be opend up little or mabe remove some doodads in that path just too cluttered making units harder to move at those spots. Good design though


modified by king of 8 plr maps
panschk[FP]
The doodads are not placed randomly, but with care. They work just like normal walls and don`t confuse unit AI. So its all good;)
LGI-
Pain tooth?! OMG, i smell that those spam bots will come to my home soon and wash my ass!

... How can you spam pain tooth!
Mars
This post is not displayed due to its content
flothefreak
HAHA!
LGI-
Yours was cartoon-porn! HAHA BACK!
flothefreak
cartoon porn >> all!
flothefreak
flothefreak hotels
Falcon_A
.....Can someone delete that? ;P
king of 8 plr maps
I would delete this entry and start new thread this spam getting really bad
Kiu
This post is not displayed due to its content
SynDrome
how many possts have been deleted?
lnept
CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP CARS!!!

WWW.RIPOFFCARS.COM

HURRY BEFORE YOU CAN'T GET RIPPED OFF!
NastyMarine
2 many
Sure-Erect-Pills
This post is not displayed due to its content
LGI-
Panschk is there an option to delete those posts? I am sick of this spam, i better put a RIP sign on this topic...
flothefreak
I really want to stress that login-only users may be necessary
Replays


--LGI, PlaZma, naTco, Chakala_1 vs (other, 1.13)
--LGI, razar vs RedBull, RedBaRReT(2on2, 1.13)
--LGI, razar vs BonusA, elentqnin(2on2, 1.13)
--LGI vs Me_Sir-Lancelot(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI vs Me_Sir-Lancelot(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI vs FLyTeRrAn(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI, choosen_two vs Twista_lame, anjimira(2on2, 1.13)
--LGI vs AtaraxY(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI, NON_STOP vs MrKite, chopar(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI, Twista_pro vs chopar, MrKite(2on2, 1.13)
--LGI vs Xs-S1av(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI vs Xs-S1av(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI vs [TF]...Unique(1on1, 1.13)
--panschk[FP] vs Hefty(1on1, 1.13)
--BiO- vs uT)PitCheR(1on1, 1.13)
--LGI vs surfinaUSA(1on1, 1.14)
--LGI vs MuJiK_CoRen(1on1, 1.14)

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