|Great map, really.|
|Very nice map but still reminds me of Lost temple^^|
|well made, gratz|
though it wasn't my choice due to being on a extra-ordinary-is-best-trip :)
|"No islands to hide, no sneaky peaky deaky ways around the corner, just straight and fast fights. That's what we want and that's why this map is our new Map of the Week."|
Finaly i got answer to my question... What sort of maps, should i make, to be liked. It's easyer then i tought. Not to make anything new, or any new tactical elements. Just a standart, and VERY GOOD looking map.
Congratilations, this map is one of the best this week, imo.
|"No islands to hide, no sneaky peaky deaky ways around the corner, just straight and fast fights. That's what we want and that's why this map is our new Map of the Week."|
That should be like a map without islands,with loads of hyper mega super good looking shit in the middle of the map,simple expansion placement and the only place you can go is through the middle.
I really have to ask:Why do YOU want more and more Maps like LT or Luna(ok luna is fuckn ugly)?I thought this is a map community that tries to make maps that differ from all that standart maps like LT,Luna or nostalgia.
I mean c'mon.Next time I do a LT clone and if it loses then I would be fuckn suprised because Arena and now Satterchasm won.
|"I thought this is a map community that tries to make maps that differ from all that standart maps like LT,Luna or nostalgia."|
We make maps for _players_ to _like_ and to _play_ on them. Why do yo make maps?
|Oh, hi LGI and ScoutWBF, are you guys new to mapmaking? Yes? Great, i'll give you a free tour through Broodwarmaps.net and mapmaking basics, just hop on!|
Ok, here we are, our first step. If you look to the right, you see some mapnames and a link called "MotW", it leads you directly to the Map of the Week Center, which stores our best work, of the past 20 weeks now. Well, actually it's not the "best work", but most of the time the best in the reguarding weeks. You will see lot's of great maps, all fresh and new, with the known basics implented, and some new stuff added, but i will come back to that later.
If we go further, you see on the left side, an "article" section, where you can educate yourself about one of our favourite articles "The Gas Issue". It comes in two parts, both important stuff to get a grip on mapmaking. What? What they are about? Well, they are about helping the Players, because they have to play the maps we are producing.
Ah, what? Yes, ah, ok, no problem, i expain it to you. A good map does not have a certain look. You have almost free hand on creating a map, but it has to have certain standards. Standards like good playability, because people should simply WANT to play a map. A map should feel right, have a good flow and should not feel complicated. So, most of the time, you will have to stick to already known concepts. Still, they are various and changeable.
Wait a second.
*whisper whisper whisper*
Ok, Starparty will bring us his last work, Satterchasm, so that we can have a look on it as an example. Ah, there he is. Thank you. Ok, take a look. What you see is a map, for four players. Very well balanced on first glance, and, it truly is! That's the most important part in my eyes, a map should be balanced. That way the players have more fun if noone has a disadvantage somehow. Also it has a nice flow. You start here, go down to the natural, which takes you a bit closer to the enemy, and then, to the mineral only here, which is even closer to the center. That way, players are drawn into the game, coming closer together, the game gettes faster and more exciting. And here are other expansions, they also have gas, so they are very worth. That adds a nice element to the game, after they are very well defendable, but also you can't move out from there if the center is in the hands of an other player. Quite tricky huh? So, maybe you see that this map offers a lot already, and on top of it all, it looks very good. Nice details, everything that should look natural actually does.
So, to have a short conclusion: That's what a good map should be like! High re-playability throguh known and new tactics, great balancing and very nice look.
What? Yeah, you're right, it's late and our time is running out. Well, ok, i hope you had fun on our little Broodwarmaps.net tour, maybe you had some nice impressions that you will remember or just think about them. Ok, so, thanx for visiting us, maybe you wan`t to come here more often, to see how things work and what mapmaking is about. Fun, for players and creators!
Have a nice day,
|I don't know whats your fucking problem, Listoric, you should take a pill and sleep a little, yes?|
Did you read my comment? Or you just see that i and ScoutWBF, quote the same line? No, no i will just copy and paste it to you, but in a parts to be more clear for you:
"Finaly i got answer to my question... What sort of maps, should i make, to be liked."
The question that i asked you many times. Yes you, Listoric! In ICQ mostly, in this site too! You know how much i want it to be in the map pack from bwmn. AND YOU WERE THE ONE WHO WROTE:
"? LGI come on, show us that you can do even better and you will have a map in the pack as well."
This was the time when i start asking this question.
"What sort of maps, should i make, to be liked."
I didn't get answer in the site, i didn't get answer in ICQ when we talk with you. You say:
"Actualy i don't know really."
And this was fine to me, i was going to have this answer by myself, in time and experience. Slowly but i am getting to the level of this site in map making.
Now to continue with my comment:
" It's easyer then i tought. Not to make anything new, or any new tactical elements. Just a standart, and VERY GOOD looking map."
I only miss to say balance too, but i wrote about that map somewhere else that is balance, so i don't miss this point so much. And i wrote it like this, because i was a little sad, because when i try to make a some new tactial elements, you just comment it, but not try it in game, to see if you are really right, i am the only one map tester for my maps. I play your maps, too, but noone play my maps. It's ok for me, i don't mind. But really when you argue for a new tactical element, it's not really fair, to argue when you haven't test this element in game. If it's new tactical element, then it's new for you in game too! And you don't know for 100% the things that you are saying is true.
Anyway it was fine for me too, it's easyer for me to make such maps too, and i DON'T MIND MAKING THIS KIND OF MAPS. My goal is to make maps that are liked. And i will do such maps.
Now let's continue:
"Congratilations, this map is one of the best this week, imo."
Look, Listoric, i like you very much, you are even the guy that i like most from this site. I like the way you bihave with people. I really like you. And now i don't feel good for all this, so place take my apology, and continue to make maps together.
|You don`t have to apoligize. I know you are very very hard working and after we're having a lot of discussion about your maps and tactics on ICQ, i really see that your heart is on your maps. |
I also hope that it doesn't sound to harsh, it was meant to be a bit of a joke also. Don't get it wrong, i also like you a lot :)
The thing is, i think everyone who visits this page regulary knows what a map should look like. Balanced, well playable, great looks and maybe some new good elements. You're right when you say that i don't play our maps often, i almost don't get to play BW at the moment at all. Still i really think that i know how this game is played, even after i'm just an "okey" player with ~120 apm.
The thing is, i create Starcraft maps for 6 years now, and there is no "normal" tactic i haven't seen by now i'd say. And i know people. It's just, i saw myself after every map i created and thought "OH MY GOD THIS IS AWESOME, EVERYONE IS GOING TO WANT AN AUTOGRAPH FROM ME FOR MAKING THIS UNBELIEVABLE MAP, WOOHOOO!!!" (i always think in CAPSLOCK ^^)
Then i show it to someone, here or a friend of mine, and the reaction is like "uh huh, erm... do you want a coffee?". It's because every mapper knows his map, knows how much time he spent, how many tactics rushed through his head while creating it, imbalances, advantages, disadvantages, just everything. In the end you lose the touch to reality and don't see the obvious flaws after you can explain them with strange tactics and countertactics. I do this all the time, till i calm down, stare at my map, and hit the DEL key.
I just had that exact feeling while creating (4)Teamwork. Then flo posted something like "nice but boring, and you did no even follow the Compeition rules"... BAMM there it was, the reality hit me like a tree. Till then i thought my map is awesome. Actually it may be interesting ingame and it's my best "different" map. Anyway.
The point is, that you have to try to seperate this creator feelings from the strict view on flaws, gameplay, looks and balance. And in that points Satterchasm is by far the best choice in my eyes.
I also saw that you were saying you "like it more and more", also most of the other comments said it's a good map, and for that, i made my mind. Seeing a lot of people say it's good, like i already thought since i looked at the map the first time. But just because Satterchasm has a simple layout, you don't have to create maps like that?!
As you said a lot of times already, you create maps that are a bit different, and i really like that. It adds fresh ideas, but then you have to be aware of the fact, that fresh ideas are good, but may have balance/gameplay/etc flaws! And that's where we're at.
Not every good idea is also good for gameplay, and just to take Azax Syndrome as an example, it's good, it's fresh, and it is T favouring, no matter how hard you try not to see this. Still it's a very playable map and i doubt that every terran can take the advantage out of the terrain. But after some games on it, Terra should know what to do, and you're in serious trouble with Protoss then, as you said yourself in the comments, something like "lol he said he had even better chance with goons". Acutally he wouldn't after goons are the wrong choice on that map, you need Reaver or DTs, which again shows, that not every tactic is good as the other on this map. You have to chose a tactic out of a way smaller pool, that way, you are limited, and i would not like to be limited in what tactics i want to play. I want free hand and a free mind.
Ok... think i got off topic somehow, hope you understand it, it's written at... 06:31 in the morning and i really should go to sleep ^^
|LGI, make an account on gg.net so you can sign up to the mapdevelopers forum|
lis: (i always think in CAPSLOCK ^^)
|btw lis i totally understands why lgi gest upset over such a post, i dont find that types of jokes funny either, beause they are really disrespectfully superior. Its like Moras post on TL before blizzcon which made me go berzerk|
|did I sound so harsh commenting your map lis?|
sry then :<
LGI: I think you just try to limit the properties of a "good map" too much. there are good maps that are very basic, but executed extremely well, so they were MOTWs (arena, satterchasm). there are also other good maps being MOTWs, but those are NOT the standard way! like, Jaculus, Gotterdaemmerung etc.
I think you try too much "making maps for being accepted" or something...
the point is, you may not think in terms of "this and that _MUST_ be in a map to be good"- there are a few (chokepoints for bases, natural expos), but you have very large possibilities to play with a map- unusual main layout, or anything. though, you have to give credit for decisive changes, for the balance.
I cannot really explain it right now, but a map gets not good by a certain "kind" (e.g. totally basic but nice), there are many influences that make a map. the concept and its execution, the style, the visual decoration, the placement of almost everything. there is no concrete recipe for a good map. you have to think for your own, and not to stick to too tight borders. there are many ways a good MOTW can look like, but's not just the "basic" thing you wanna see in it right now.
neither is anything possible, and as lis said, sometimes you have to accept that others see (all) one thing that causes imbalance, but you shouldn't deny then. sometimes you have to acknowledge that you was wrong, as everybody has been before. examples: lis with his Teamplay, me with "Unknown Destination" and so on, several times.
don't get frustrated, you ahve to try to find the right way on every map, and not every good map is also "played instantly" (take a look at Chaos_Factor, lis even said "good map, i like it. but it doesn't me wanna play it). so, this is not good for me, but I accept it. it's good, I know that (though it could been better when I improve it naturally), but it's not played that often. unfortunately, but what can I do about? i go on to the next project and maybe come back to it later, as I did.
by the way, don't complain for being not accepted- ou already had a MOTW, I didn't. so it would be me having to say "bla i dunno what to do, i wanna have a MOTW". but if it doesn't happen, well, it's not that important :)
Yeah, Listoric. I agree with everything you said. I have the same feelings too, about finishing map and etc... Well somehow i try to put in my brain, that after i upload the map, it will be fired with not very good comments. And i do this to my brain, only to be prepare for the many things that i should fix, and i don't see. So i try, but sometimes, when you see, that something is wrong - I don't see it, even if you tell it :( . From that comes all my reactions :( . And the problem is mayby, because i still don't have much experience, don't know really, but it's all my problem.
I already have an acc in gg.net, it's InfectedMind.
Thanks for comment, and i don't complain, that i am not accepted in the bwmn map pack, i just said, that i want it to be a part of, and i try to make a map for it, but mayby next time.
|P.S. Sorry, about many offtopics, Starparty.|
|Well LGI, I actually prefer new stuff, that's why I was insisting on wizzy noise for motw. But besides balancing, pure awesomeness in the looks of a map are something starparty has in almost all of his maps, you are not on that level yet. Say what you want, but of course that's an important factor too.|
when Starparty started to make maps and published them at TL.net i disliked them cause they were kinda equal complicated and unusual as yours are atm
but after he made a lot of experiences he realized that there is sth like a "standard design" of balanced and popular maps in general.. so he started to make maps basing on it and implementing "small details" that make a map unique
i rly like the maps he is making now and i think they are more accepted by the community... Arena and Satterchasm are rly worth to be Motw
i think u should try to make a map in that "standard design"... i would like to see a map of u having bases like "base->cliff->gasnat->middle->minsnat (gasnat little narrowed and middle open)" clockwise... means one positions gasnat shows to the next positions base... the symetry should be based on the point at 63/63 and not on a line from north to south or west to east
thats just one "standard design", there are more for sure, but that one is hard to make it "new" and rly nice
im sure u gonna make such a map if u try and i hope u gonna do this... contact me at ICQ 130725678 if u need help or just any responses anyhow
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