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2 maps for BWCL

deadline to enter maps: 2006, 02, 10 (Year, month, day)
well, as the BWCL decision must be done soon, I think this is the easiest way to choose 2 maps.

the focus should be on playability and balance. the maps will be played in a _major_ league, so we should garantuee that there are no bugs happening. which means that all maps with too much emphasis on neutral buildings and similar (small custom ramps, like on origo hills?) should be excluded.

map must be:
2-4 players
in a final stadium (tankholes fixed etc)
really attractive: the overall first impression counts a lot (this may exclude airmaps cuz only few players like it and would choose it volunteerly(?), which wouldn't really fit in our purpose)
if possible, already played
not too experimental

replays with testgames count as a plus I think

just add _good_ maps and when we got some, we can talk about a decision.
this "competition" is open for changes of rules, ofc. those up there are only proposals that are reasonable in my opinion.

NameAuthorDownloadvote(1., 2., 3. choice)
(2)Ode to the sunSummerSkyMelee Obs Picture0
(4)Arena 1.1StarpartyMelee Obs Picture0
(2)Star GatesRSCup.SpitFire[7x]Melee Obs Picture0
(4)Mind ControlAlexTMelee Obs Picture0
(4)Temple of EdenListoricMelee Obs Picture0
(2)Sleeping Sun FinalScoutWBFMelee Obs Picture1
(4)Memory CelltrccMelee Obs Picture0
(2)S ignaltrccMelee Obs Picture0
(2)FocusAlexTMelee Picture0
(2)Romanov Standoff1.3Arden(WoF)Melee Obs Picture0
The competition is closed!
Comments:

sp
arena is a safe card :p but shangri-la is a funnier map
decaf
Get rid of idustrial disease, it's not exactly appealing.
ScoutWBF
I think it's looking pretty nice.

If you would make it this way Decaf you could also kick Memory Cell out of the competition because like 40people said it sucks. (It sucks= its not appealing)
flo
40 ppl? where did you get 40 people dropping a comment on this motw? when I count gg.net plus bw.de plus BWMN, I get about 50.

50 at all.
and there were about 4 ppl saying "imbalance+sucks". maybe you typed a "0" too much accidentally.
decaf
Industrial disease just looks too plain, especially to someone who's not a map maker. Not that it looks bad or is a bad map, its just plain and boring.
LaO-Artanis
From the maps currently in the competition, I'd have to choose Arena and Star Gates. I like both of those maps, and they should play very nicely.
flo
what about SG as standard map, and NOT taking arena?
arena already is PGT, so it won't be clear that this one is due to BWMN

all would think "taken due to PGT"
well, don't wanna take SP's fame away ;D
ScoutWBF
I don't like the idea of SG being standart map.But maybe it's just because I don't like the concept of the map.

If Arena is put into the mappool Luna and LT should be removed because Arena is basic enough for both :P

I think we should make an ID limit lie only maps with ID 500+ are allowed because I wouldn't like to play old maps.
sp
all maps are newer than the rest in the pach (the promaps)
ScoutWBF
I don't think so.
epidiOn
Space Pirates and Temple of Eden.
flo
ein herzliches FICK DICH geht and dich und deine familie :)

besser wäre es, wenn du progamer (denn das bist du ja!) nur auf LT müsstest. dann nix mit umgewöhnen oder so, oder kreativität, nein, einfach nur spielen wies die andren machen! GG

fick dich un verpiss dich.
sp
"progamer"
what a joke
LGI
My opinion...

I think that we should push maps, that are unknown to the world. In BWMN he have a lot of good maps, but for some limits, like now for example (2 maps), we can not push all good maps. So imo Arena is not a good choise, because it's already pushed a lot, and it's well known. Same goes for S ignal...

Submit whatever you want, pick whatever you want, but "Fresh meat" is better, imo...
sp
the point is, if we push arena even more, it could take place as an actual default map and not only a second or third selection. Even though its good for my personal satisfaction i believe it is good to have that great achievement by the site. it could open new doors.
LGI
If this is a candidate for a push to WCG, i am with two hands in the air for Arena. Because what can we want more then PGTour or WGTour? Next goal - WCG!

And ofcourse let's not forget our real goal...



W O R L D D O M I N A T I O N ! ! !
sp
Yea, thats it ;)
flo
no offense, sp, really.

but even if we push arena further, it will still be more "your" map than BWMN. to make BWMN popular, we need _lots_ of known maps.

don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge you the succes with it.
ScoutWBF
I think Sleeping Sun would be a good decision.It's a very action related map for an air map.I just played a 1v1 on it and it was pretty exciting for me^^
Listoric
Scout. No.

If we can chose 2 maps out of ~700 to represent our page as a highskilled meleemappage, SS is definetely not in consideration, because it lacks in quality and interesting gameplay compared to other maps on this page.

Arena could be it, and there were eoug on BW.de who _wanted_ to play this map by themselves, which is clearly a good sign. So, imo, we should send in Arena. Arena is a BWMN map.

Memory Cell has a "known" feel to it. Everyone was reminded of Nostalgia after looking at it, some even on Azalea (
Star Gates has some fresh expansion positions in my eyes (compared to standard league maps) and still a basic feel to it, which makes it totally appealing in my eyes also.

Temple of Eden - I'd DIE to see this map played heavily in a league, because it's my best work as i say ever and ever again. Still i doubt it has "Leagueability". A fun map to play, high standard, but not high enough i'd guess.
Listoric
to memory Cell, the second part got cut off:

Memory Cell has a "known" feel to it. Everyone was reminded of Nostalgia after looking at it, some even on Azalea (wtf? how?) and that is somehow a good start because it's just better compared to it's ancestors, and could kick them in the ass in direct comparison.
Listoric
• My thoughts: (as posted in the BWCL Topic)


Signal - good but not overwhelming for my taste.
Space Pirates - good but not as good as...
Star Gates - in my eyes. its simple and more promising than SP imo. Also i like the setup more than both on one side. (personal preference)
Sleeping Sun - Good but Amistad would be the better airmap in comparison, still both are not likely to be played anyway. Airmaps are just not overwhelming.
Götterdämmerung - nice, but the first expansion layout may be to complex for "the standard user" to understand (even if it's quite clear what to do...)
Outlaw Anthem - nice but not my taste, SP, SG Gött are better in comparison imo.
Unholy Gods II - Nice but not sure about balancing.
Ebullition - also simple but interesting, still i see the entrance as T favouring, but that's just my taste (as stated in the comments to the map i think)

Temple of Eden - Memory Cell - both 4 player maps. I prefer MC over ToE in competitive play somehow, still i love ToE as it is my best map so far. Both really good maps, but as Arena is picked already, a 2 player map may be the better choice.
Listoric
Wel, i just copy pasted it. Arena is NOT picked already, but it is likely to be picked imo.
ScoutWBF
Yeah it lacks quality,thats why all people that play the map say it's an awesome map,which makes fun to play.

It sucks that you only consider Ground maps to be worth for BWCL.I put a lot of fuckn effort in Sleeping sun and you don't say anything to improve and now you tell me the map IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH?

Just send Arena and another just basic ground map,cause you are scared that you could lose respect.Well respect you never had! Look at Mapdori and what maps are accepted for the pro leagues.They are hardly basic.

The players today want maps that are like the maps of the leagues in Korea and you won't get far with your "Let's just asccept basic ground maps" concept.
sp
We make maps that are BAlANCED for tournies. Mapdori makes maps that are EPXERIMENTAL because those maps are broadcasted in TV and they want cool games on them.

We cant tell you everything to do to make the map perfect. This is no school. We will help you if you can, but we dont set grades on your stuff. we dont guarantie that we will like it just because we cant suggest anything more to do. Its all about improvement. Look at JK)Valkyrion or what his name is. H has been here for two weeks and is already improving. LGI started making crap (no offencce LGI), but makes some nicely forged stuff today. If you cant see why Your map isnt top-of-the-line then you havnt developed since you started on it. And just because i cant point out exactly why doesnt mean im wrong. Because on the same basis YOu cant point out why you are right.
ScoutWBF
Mhhh I'm not in the mood to write a long text,so I just say Sleeping Sun is one of the best air maps ever and should be suggested to the BWCL admins. Just cause 5mappers don't like the map and think it shouldn't get suggested and therefor won't be suggested sucks pretty much.
flothefreak
scoutWBF, i don't wanna offend you, so take the following easy plz.

SS is a good map, really. it has some style, and I really like it. but to be honest: there are better maps out there. there are better maps out there, better than mine and better than yours. that's just a fact. and mappers ALWAYS tend to overestimate their own work, and you won't get too far without realizing that your opinion is biased.
of course friends playing with you on your map won't say it's shit. well, on SS, they don't even have to cause it's not shitty at all.
long story short: you are not the right person to judge your own maps, some friends aren't unbiased either, and SS is good for sure, but it's not the perfect WOW map.
ScoutWBF
Acutally people I don't know said the map is awesome.
flothefreak
then ask them what they love most about it

you know that test, where they let a rhinozeros paint a picture, and put it into an art gallery?
lots of people stopped at it and laughed. then the testers let an actor play the "artist" having made the image. he told them stuff like, "that my picture, I tried to add a wild nature feeling to it" and so on.
and the same people laughing before were like "uh, great art" "if you would now ask me if i wanted to buy it, i would be honoured" "your really skilled"

etc

what i wanna say? don't take compliments for 100% sure. would you say into someone's face "hey your image is ugly" or "hey your map is ok, but no more"? maybe you would do. others won't.
flothefreak
your=you're
flo
added chaos factor as well

two reasons:
1) lis said it'd be better than Outlaw Anthem
2) I am so bored right now :<
Listoric
Some maps have the chance to get into BWCL (which isn't the biggest league anyway) and i'd love to see Temple of Eden to be played. But that's just dreaming around. There are better maps on BWMN and it wouldn't make any sense to send a map not as good as others into the competition, in my eyes.

I don't know who said that, but it's something like:

"Always try to be your hardest judge"

And that's what it always should be. I can't see anyone standing here and praising his maps to heaven. LGI once did and realised he was wrong, even i did it back in the days, and was also wrong of course.

And for that, ToE is, in my eyes, one of the best 4 player maps "ever created". Which is true to some point. But in comparison to others, it's just not that good.

No offense, but Amistad is the better 2 player airmap. You may want to argue about that or not, i don't mind. Fact is that i don' send Amistad in, because it'S just useless. I heard people say it'S the best airmap they have ever seen, from various people. Still it's not good enough to be played in a tourney. it WOULD be good enough easyly, but after "our mappack" only consists of 2 maps, we have to chose the best and msot wanted "league-alike maps" on BWMN.

You can still sit here and praise your work where like everyone already said it's a very well made map, but noone was overwhelmed by it. If it were so, it would have been MOTW since weeks. SS = good airmap. No doubt. Still not good enough.

And, even if you say "no one was helping anymore and sugguesting anymore", then just look up your ICQ history once more, and check your dialogues with me.
epidiOn
A lot of the time, a concept just isn't good enough. I'm not saying that is the exact case with SS, I'm really not sure. But just because there are no more suggestions doesn't mean it is perfect. For awhile I loved both (2)Midoma and (2)Divine Revelation. But even after they slipped from the most updated list, and after people stopped giving comments and ideas, I knew they weren't really MotW worthy.

In competition with 900+ maps on this site, it's hard to have one of the 2 best.

Question: Who here is sure that their map is one of the 2 best maps on the site? In my opinion, nobody should really be sure.
panschk
I just dont know about TvZ on SG. Looks like zerg will have a pretty hard time to get the FE. Dont want any "imba maps" in there. If we could get some opinions from good players it would help. I will once again ask my clanmates at FP-board, and you could ask some good players too, showing a selection of the favorites of the contest to decide.

If I understood right what Satyr was saying, WE decide the 2 BWMN maps. So we really need to get to a decision.
sp
How about counterpoint then? Its fairly experimental and still very interesting. Or mabye blue valleys? That is kinda cool map if you ask me :p
WBF
I will ask some good players about Sleeping Sun and then post their comments here.
LGI-
Don't waste your time, WBF...

P.S. Wow, The Kids Creation - haha, nice! I don't know who add it, but i will keep it :P
flo
scout, balance on an airmap is not the point of discussion...
ScoutWBF
I know.
panschk
Hey, I do not think we can really "agree" on this here. How about we pick 5-6 maps and let the players in bwcl board vote on which one to pick? Maybe the map will get most acceptance like this.

Signal, star gates, Ebullition, ToE, Sleeping Sun, Shangri La
one of those 2.
flo
I'd say let them choose between

goetterdaemmerung
temple of eden
goddess of day
shangri-la
memory cell
chaos factor

that are the most attractive in my opinion.
ScoutWBF
Sleeping Sun
Temple of Eden
Memory Cell

The other maps are good but as I saw some games on them I found for example Goddess of day pretty boring.

Please don't blame me but it's just my oppinion.
panschk
lol, signal or star gates should win, so your list is not good^^

How about saying no secound starparty map, to limit the numbers of maps at least _a bit_ ? hm that sucks too, starparty maps are so gosu o_O

But a poll with too many maps is not good because the result is just too random.

Okay new proposal:

Listoric, flo, SP, spitfire, LGI and me each pick ONE map that goes to the vote. Does not matter if own map or by someone else. Then we give this list to BWCL and they vote!?

I pick: S ignal
flo
panschk:
i forgot to mention: NO WAY for signal. really. we have to bring stuff from bwmn, not a map where everyone is only thinking of "blizzcon!"
flo
for the rest, your proposal is a good way.
just signal in the pool makes me sick 8[
panschk
Whats wrong with Blizzcon maps? Are we saying: "our maps are only for one competetion, then we will replace it" Don't we want our own "classics"?
For example, if arena does well and gets some love, will we push for replacing it just because we have so many other maps that we want to get played? Signal prove to be a really cool in blizzcon, the fact that some players already know it is a bonus imo.

If everyone thinks like flo, then replace s ignal with star gates. But only then :)
flo
i just think having two BWMN-maps that are _new_ and thus cause some discussion are better then one "pgt" and one "blizzcon" map

hope ya get me right...i don't wanna harm anyone. but as we already have arena in it, another one would be cool. another unknown one.

signal was popular among the progamers, but i just doubt if it's the best thing to take _two_ already popular ones...
Listoric
I send you my decision via PM.

That way we don't have a discussion here?


Listoric
Ok, i sent you the PM. Something more than just a mapname, it's a big comment on everything.

Let's see what happens in the end.
flothefreak
i'd really like to hear your thoughts. if you don't mind, I'd be pleased to read your statement as well.
seriously, that's no irony or stuff
sp
I really have no problem with signal either. i will have to second panschks vote. for experimental maps u have götterdämmerung, but other than that id say signal.
XuuL
from this list here i prefer:

Arena
Aztec
Memory Cell
Montoya
Shangri-La

but there are still others which should be concidered... like

Ecuadorsal
Kingdom of Aragua
Sattarchasm

.. which im going to add to the list now ^^

XuuL
personally im pro:

Arena
Montoya
Inept
arena and memory cell.
they just play the best.
no competition.
epidiOn
Nautilus is a different map, and I played a few games on it today. It plays really nicely.
inept
unfortunately i dont see nautilus on there :(
decaf
Montoya, Arena, Memory Cell, Nautilus(someone add it)
SummerSky
can i add my map - ode? asdf
IA-Sky
check out my map (4)genesis ^^
decaf
check out my map (4)genesis ^^

I hope you were kidding :/
Arden(WoF)
Who added my map???
yenku
ok, I see alot of map makers with thier decisions, so as more of a gamer who plays maps that interest me,I think the ones that I would most like to play are:
1)Arena - Balanced + Sexy
2)Star Gates - I think its the better choice from the others..


Memory Cell, I would rather play Nostalgia, no offense, still a cool map. I think T will have an easy time defending main TvP. Just theory craft tho.

S ignal doesnt get much play time away from the center, I think games on this will mostly be played in the center because the rest of the map is a bit seperated, I mean, I like the map, but just doesn't suit me.

Ode to the sun is cool, I enjoyed my 3 games on it. I think more people should take a look at it.
Arden(WoF)
I got some replays of nal_ra, Yellow, and other ubers :) fighting on S ignal (Starcraft.org) and The battles seemed to take place at the naturals and second naturals. They made good use of the backdoors and they were some interesting games. I think S ignal is more than worthy
yenku
eh.. i was just sayin it didn't seem like it flowed as well as others
Arden(WoF)
lol...someone keeps submitting Romanov
flothefreak
decision was made long ago, but satyr told me (i asked^^) that they COULD reveal the mappack, but they won't :p
LGI
Deadline?
panschk[FP]
...
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